Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:14 pm  

jaws1 wrote:

SKY money saved the game 26 years ago we are no better position now as they are pulling the rug from beneath us.Live games in the pub why pay £25 when you can watch for free and have a free night out. Turn the clock back when MO got the deal and the controversial format he wanted would we be in a better position now after all the RFL want to make more radical changes now in this moment of time
Salary Cap not moved in all the years of SKY money not even moved with inflation as mentioned in previous posts why should rich backers come into the sport. Koukash with his hands tied behind his back by the RFL for example could have brought a lot more of his rich friends into the sport all he got from the RFL was a brick wall. Clubs not playing up to Salary cap limit.
With the salary cap we have lost players to the NRL and not been able to attract players from NRL only those at the end of their careers coming for a retirement Why should Moran,Caddick,Lenegan etc not be able to spend money on big stars Salary cap killed the game .
Tinkered about with the format of the SL too much--- license no promotion/relegation -14 teams then down to 12 playing these loop matches the attraction of playing Saints twice a year gone are the times we used to enjoy these matches now do not have the same importance any more
Too many rule changes .SKY interference to make the Grand Final more important than the Challenge cup.
Refereeing decisions even when going /not going to the screen even when going to the screen taking too long.
COVID not all people feel that they are safe when attending a match .
With covid finances limited if they have been furloughed and now the threat of austerity looming for public employees.
Salary cap again instead of improving the league teams are a lot more weaker its still the big teams winning the cups.
No one knows apart from ex players on BBC who the current players are stifled by the RFL as players cant put themselves in the shop window in adverts SC .
Fans got out of the habit of going to matches did summer rugby improve the attendances once again moved by SKY
SKY gave us a lifeline back then and now instead of improving the game it has gone terribly backwards.

I still feel Koucash would reinvest in a club, but it would have to take a big shift in RFL administration for him to do so. He certainly wouldn't with one hand tied behind his back, as you say who knows the other contacts he could bring with him to help strengthen the game.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:37 pm  

The SC hasn’t gone up for god knows how long because we decided to drag clubs down to Cas, Wakey, Hull KR and Salford’s level rather than force those clubs up or show them the door. The Nigel Wood led RFL decided to lower standards rather than raise them and try to claim the opposite. Do we have more competitive games now? I’d say so yes but the other side to that coin is that the quality just isn’t there anymore.

The licensing system for me was spot on. It forced clubs to improve faculties - well in Cas and Wakey’s case they somehow continued (and continue to) blag it - and revenue, drive up their fan base but we bottled it. They’ll change the structure again in 2022 and it’ll be all signing all dancing, this is gonna happen, that’s gonna happen when in reality I will bet anyone £100 that by 2025 it’s either gone, or they’re looking at getting rid.

We don’t back anything when the going gets tough. Super 8s, War of the Roses, Exiles, England v France. All prime examples of things that, IMO, would have come good if we’d stuck to it and tweaked it as needed. The only thing we’ve done well is Magic Weekend because we did just that. Stuck with it and tweaked it, found out what worked, what didn’t and took on board both criticism and compliments.

We got rid of licensing 10years ago after a meek 3yrs, or one cycle. The game, I’d argue as regressed since then even further back than what it was then. We should have stuck with licensing and not give in to the clubs who didn’t want to improve themselves and/or were incapable of doing so. I’d have quite happily swapped out Wakefield for Leigh. Cas for Toulouse. KR for York. Salford for Newcastle if they were where they are now back then without any hesitation. Why? Because they have the capability and drive to improve and build. The new structure looks similar to what licensing was. I just hope they stick with it this time.

On another note; can we rid ourselves of the inept Ralph Rimmer and put Jon Dutton in his place ASAP?

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 5:19 pm  

bonnie wrote:

It's not just home fans not attending,Wire fans were lowest i have seen at Headingley .Infact Salford had more when attending Headingley . I kid you not.

Were they playing at half 7 on a Sunday?

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:01 pm  

TF and the wire wrote:

Were they playing at half 7 on a Sunday?

Those kick off times are beyond ridiculous. There’s no reason why they can’t be 2/3pm Sunday afternoon.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:06 pm  

where have the 15,000 or so that used to watch in 2010-2012 gone to

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:50 pm  

MR FRISK wrote:

where have the 15,000 or so that used to watch in 2010-2012 gone to

Are you taking the mick? You are one of them, in fact you had happily admitted over the last few years that you no longer go to games at all, almost gleefully at times weirdly. You have your reasons for it, fair enough but rather than asking the question why don't you just tell us why you dont.....

By the way I'm a ex Season ticket holder, home and (mostly) away but in recent years work commitments at weekends have limited my attendance at games. I do try to watch as many live games as I can which is normally around half a dozen a season. The Leigh game was my first one back since the start of the pandemic and I plan to go to the Saints & Leeds home games in August, hopefully.

Theres a number of factors why average attendances have declined from 15k.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:18 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

With the exception of the over-compensating Sky commentary team, for whom everything is incredibly exciting, and the atmosphere at half-full stadia is the best they've ever experienced, and such-and-such-a-virtually-unknown player is the best in the game at whatever it is he's just done, I feel there's a genuine worry in the air.

The fact we've all been watching so much more of the NRL has also contributed to this, as it's clearly shown us what an RL competition can look like when it reaches its full potential. That's something we've not seen in the UK for decades (if at all) and despite the forthcoming changes (which are obviously only coming because they've been forced upon us), it feels as though it's further away now than ever

MattyB wrote:

The game was at its strongest around the early 00's, Saints & Bradford competing for honours in front of large crowds, with Leeds hit on their heels and us finding a resurgence after a couple of years of no success.

Trying to get the sport back to strength to around that time is what we should be aiming for. Needs strong leadership from management (Rimmer isn't the man in my opinion).

If your Wakeys, Castleford.... etc. Don't want to sign up for it then let them decay further. Better 2-3 clubs with no ambition than restricting 9-10 clubs ultimately forcing them to go semi pro.

These quotes sum it up for me and are absolutely spot on the money.
In the early 2000's i rarely missed a game on sky and went to all wigan games....Im what you would call a RL obsessive, to the point that I struggle with other sports because they offer nothing in comparison to our game. But the sad fact is that the product has been in terminal decline in this country for many years. The salary cap has not helped and the standard of the game has diminished to the lowest common denominator. They got what they wanted (competitiveness), but basically most teams now play at a similar level to your salfords and huddersfields, rather than drive the game forward!

These days I watch all wigan games, but don't always go, and struggle to get motivated for anything but the bigger games. In terms of watching other SL on tele, I won't even bother unless its a combination of catalans, wire, saints, leeds, hull, possibly cas playing each other.....even then, i usually check the report at half time and if its looking like a good game i'll watch the second half.

Compare to SL circa early 2000s when i would sit down to every game to watch from the build up, or the NRL, where i can watch 4/5 games a weekend with no club affiliation and I am clamoring for more!

IMO there are THREE huge problems the game has;

i) Appeal of the game - Still played predominantly in relatively small northern towns, to small amounts of the population. Add the populations of all RL towns together and you're looking at approx 2.6m people (4% of the total population). Never was this more apparent to me than a family holiday two years ago when facing impossible problems to find a pub in Truro with Leeds v Wigan on TV. It occurred to me that to people in the SW, this is as interesting as us watching Truro vs Exeter!!! However good the game it has no appeal.

ii) Perceptions and Investment - Linked to the above, the impression the game has on sky, blue chip sponsors - that the game is a northern peculiarity and still carries old perceptions. The word 'league' has little but negative connotations....just listen to how some in the southern based media say the word 'league' is derisory. Outside of our game, league is mimicked by many, trotting out eddie wearing / northern stereotypes,coal mines, a deprived northern regional game which is a poor relation to the true code of rugby (union).
This means there is limited appetite for investors, despite being a better product, because of poor image and the demographics & reach of who the game appeals to. Added to this, the Super league brand has been a failure, and lost to womans footbal, netball and fantasy football leagues, just like the Rugby WC, due to our ineptitude and failure to trademark it!
This is why we get Bachelors peas / Heinz big soup and free Papa Johns pizzas etc as some of our main sponsorship partners.

iii) Standard and quality of product - Inexorably linked to the two above, because of the salary cap, lack of investment, reduced interest in our game, the standard at the top is so poor that you have RL diehards like us, saying we are bored with the UK game.....what chance do we have of bringing in new fans?!

.....So what options to we have, in an increasingly competitive and international sporting landscape, to save the game from becoming an irrelevance in the northern hemisphere in the next 5-10 years? Unless we do something drastic, realistically I can only see the game back as part time in the not too distant future.

My solutions to our biggest problems would be as follows;

1. We desperately need another re-branding and breakaway. The brands we have are tired, tarnished and either carry negative connotations or are confused with things like womens football! League similarly carries negative connotations. I would rebrand the whole game as Rugby XIIIs (said as 'Rugby Thirteens') just as in france. Perhaps even restructuring the top division as 13 teams to support this.

2. As part of rebranding, existing clubs would also re-brand as a condition of their licence application.

Most selected for the top division would remain in current towns / stadiums with the same core fan base and identity, but namings would be tweaked to appeal to wider geographical areas. ie/ Liverpool Saints / Hull East Yorkshire / Wigan Lancs etc. Each team would play 1-2 home games away from their home base each year within their region. For example, Saints playing occasional games in Liverpool, but all but 1 or 2 still in St Helens.

This helps the game in two ways;
i) all teams grow and appeal to a greater amount of individuals, so ultimately attendances and following goes up
ii) but critically it also addresses all of the perception problems we see securing investment in the game....that we are a game played in small northern towns where only approx 4% of the population live.

So almost solves i) and ii) in one go!!

If existing SL teams did this alone, you could increase your catchment areas to cover upwards of 10 million people opposed to 2 million.
If you also introduce new and re-promoted clubs ie/ London SW Broncos and Newcastle or Tyne Thunder you increase that to somewhere in the region of 20-25 million people within the catchment area of a SL club...getting close to half of the population.
If you're an advertiser thats a hell of a lot more attractive.

Yes, it may leave the wakefields behind but they could reform in a vibrant British championship they would have a realistic chance of winning (which they will never have currently), playing against other teams at their level and with similar resources and fan base. They are much better playing at their level than holding those at the top back.

My reformed Super 13s would be;
Leeds Rhinos
Liverpool Saints
Manchester Fords (Salford rebrand on the same premise as Saints, with Fords being a throw to Salford) If Salford are too parochial and not brave enough then a new Manchester club.
Cheshire Wire (Warrington rebrand- same premise)
Lancashire Warriors or possibly Wigan Lancs (due to the strength of the Wigan brand)
Hull East Yorkshire
London SW Broncos
Tyne Thunder
Wales / Celtic Crusaders Back at Wrexham, where they were successful and actually starting to get crowds.
Catalan Dragons
Toulouse Olympique who will probably be in next year anyway
....plus one or two others selected on basis of applications....possibly Toronto or a new club.

Ask Sky and advertisers what they would pay for that.....Probably 2-3 times as much!!

Most of those clubs are already in place and ready to go, but with some smart re-brands you are appealing to huge areas of the country, rather than a few hundred thousands in deprived northern towns.

We then have a proper super league to drive the game forward....IMO the game could be twice as it is currently in 2-5 years.

Yes it takes a huge mindshift, yes you need to be brave, but do that and the game can survive.....carry on and we're dead in the water in 10 years, back to semi pro and amateur.
For me the writing is already on the wall, when our own fan base seems to have dropped to below 10k. Realistically that isn't sustainable and clubs like Wigan should be leading this breakaway with ambitious clubs who want to drive the game forward.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:55 pm  

I think Sky are a big part f the problem of the nothern stereotype, as long as you have O'Connor and Mac as co-commentators(?) with their overly nothern accents and mannerisms it will always portray the game as nothern. Add in the average to poor commentry and the constant shuffling of times/days shown how can anyone other than a die ahrd fan get on board.

Sadly the whole idea of re-branding will not happen - too mamy clubs will maintain the status quo until they go out of business.

The Super League franchises at the start in '96 with the insistence on grounds/accedemy etc was the way forward but was fairly rapidly diluted and diluted until we have the current situation - we don't even have a decent resrves setup at most clubs now.

The game needs visionaries prepared to shake thinsg up but they are totally absent in the game and with the current world situation I think it is unlikely any will emerge. Just surviving seems to be enough for a lot of clubs now and in recent years with no more ambition than that.

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:54 pm  

They are selling 1,000 tickets for only 10 quid for the Saints game on Fri 22nd August

Re: Attendances - Do we need to be worried? : Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:14 pm  

exiled Warrior wrote:

I think Sky are a big part f the problem of the nothern stereotype, as long as you have O'Connor and Mac as co-commentators(?) with their overly nothern accents and mannerisms it will always portray the game as nothern. Add in the average to poor commentry and the constant shuffling of times/days shown how can anyone other than a die ahrd fan get on board.

Sadly the whole idea of re-branding will not happen - too mamy clubs will maintain the status quo until they go out of business.

The Super League franchises at the start in '96 with the insistence on grounds/accedemy etc was the way forward but was fairly rapidly diluted and diluted until we have the current situation - we don't even have a decent resrves setup at most clubs now.

The game needs visionaries prepared to shake thinsg up but they are totally absent in the game and with the current world situation I think it is unlikely any will emerge. Just surviving seems to be enough for a lot of clubs now and in recent years with no more ambition than that.

You're bang right on the commentary team. They need some good lead commentators who generate excitement.....the sky ones are appalling since Eddie. The only decent RL commentator we have is woods imo. If sky wanted to present the game in a positive way they'd keep Carney and Wells, shift the rest of them off and get someone like woods.

Its why i hoped we'd go to BT sports to reinvent the presentation....Unfortunately, because of many of the reasons above, sky have also now lost interest and just see us as a filler.

The whole Super League 96 thing was a fudge, because they cowed to pressure of the small minded and self interested who wanted to keep the game as it was.....so all we have 25 years on is a re-branded Stones Bitter Championship plus Catalan!! It achieved nothing!

We definitely needs some visionaries who are prepared to shake things up for the good of the game, and not be scared about what a few thousand in castleford or wakefield think. Yes, they will be scared about being left behind, but a viable British championship could fit nicely beneath the top tier. If we want to be serious about a modern credible professional sport, there isn't room for so many clubs in the heartlands at the top level, playing in shoddy stadiums in front of often less than 5k fans!

We're at a cross roads...which is why re-branding some of the existing top teams to represent wider areas works so well for me....you're effectively bolting on the Super 15s model onto existing clubs to increase the attractiveness and commercial viability of the sport. Yes it goes against some of the tradition and grain, but those clubs would still be Wigan / Warrington etc to us, they'd just be something different to new fans and commercial markets.

Its time to listen to our heads rather than our hearts, and be prepared to collectively do things which may not sit comfortably but which we recognise is for the overall good of the game.

....otherwise i honestly think the game will be in such a state in 10 years time that the only realistic option for top clubs like wigan, wire, leeds, saints to remain professional will be to defect to become union teams....essentially the death of the game!
Would rather do something bold and drastic now which gives us a chance, than become a semi-pro regional northern oddity in 10 years, where our top clubs are lost to play an inferior version of the sport!!