So it was the 4th officials fault. And Pellegrini just let it happen?



What was the excuse for not knowing how the away goals rule works?

Wouldn't the manager just tell one of his assistants "I'm taking x off and putting on y"? Explain any other positional changes and then leave it to the assistant to tell the players and 4th official? It was a cock up but probably unfair to blame Pellegrini.



No arguments about the away goals fiasco.

bet david moyes wishes he had only got something like this to worry about

Without Rooney and RVP, manchester united squad is about as good as fulhams man for man, but sure, keep on blaming moyes

That Raymond Verheijen bloke on twitter says it's Moyes' fault RvP is injured. Blames Moyes' training methods/styles and the way he's used him. Find it hard that people aren't pointing a bit of the blame at Moyes, he looks lost and his team selections seem more of a hopeless punt rather than a clear aim or desirable way of playing.



I thought he done a decent job at Everton, but how long can United accept these results? People are saying United aren't like other clubs, that they know he's the right man and they always knew it would take time once Fergie left. Unfortunately, football isn't the sport where you get that time, the desire to win and win now is massive amongst every club. United have been fortunate that they've had Fergie for so long, as most of the other big sides in Europe have turned managers over quite regularly, purely because of that desire to win and win now, and purely because they find it almost impossible to sustain success and keep things 'fresh'. Moyes seemingly can't get this bunch to perform like AF did so he's going to have to sell a large portion of players and bring his own in. Personally, I don't think he's up to that task. He's still got half the year to pick things up and I do believe they will finish far better than they have been recently playing, Everton always seemed to pick up after January, but the majority of the season has been unacceptable given the lofty standards of recent decades.

He makes some fair points. Moyes said they'd overworked him in pre-season. Don't, ffs. You'll break him. He needs wrapping in cotton wool, not flogging into the ground.

Woodward also deserves to be included in any criticism IMO, he was part of the massive recruitment failure in the summer, which is what a significant amount of their current predicament boils down to. Whether it was him or Moyes that seemed to be wanting to get players on the cheap, one of them should have seen sense. They needed to get 1 or 2 good signings in fairly quickly to reassure other potential targets, the longer it went on the more hesitant people will have got about joining, as ever since it has just looked more and more like the start of the downward slope for Man Utd. Instead, they offered relative buttons for players, which will just have angered clubs who know full well that Man Utd can afford their asking prices. I reckon that had they offered a combined £40m for Fellaini and Baines in June/July, they'd have got them, and then they would have been in a better position to go after Fabregas for a similar figure.



Their midfield is so far from the standard they need it's frightening for them. Looking at the top 7/8 now, compare how many of their central midfielders would get a starting spot at any of the other sides to how many players at those teams would walk into Man Utd's current lineup. And there are 2 or 3 of those who arrived at their new clubs in the summer, so were on the market. To me, Tom Cleverley epitomises the decline of Man Utd's midfield, and so long as he is starting most games they will not regain their position as challengers.

In defence of Moyes, Verheijen was slagging him off as United boss as soon as his appointment was announced.



There's also the fact that RVP has always been a sicknote player, with the exception of last season.



Verheijen has a history of running his mouth. RVP and Arjen Robben were only injured at Arsenal and Chelsea because of the miss-training by their clubs, and seeing Robben at Bayern proved that he was okay at a club with proper training. 1) Isn't Robben back to being a sick note right now at Bayern again? 2) Robben was injured twice at Chelsea as a direct consequence of being kicked in matches.



He's said to have worked as advisor at a host of clubs including CFC, Arsenal and the pre money City, but IMO if the guy wanted unimpeachable credentials then he needs to get in at a major club and stay there. Make that side shine by having the fittest, strongest squad in Europe and then offer his proven theories. But he just seems to be a consultant with very few long term roles. If he was good as he thinks he is a top club would have kept him.



He's also the about effing DH who said he should have been appointed Wales boss after the death of Gary Speed. Giving him the job of manager was the only way to carry on Speed's legacy, according to him, in the days after Speed's death.







He did do a decent job at Everton. But doing a decent job at Everton and and being manager of Manchester United are such massively different roles that IMO MU were absolutely foolish for giving him the job. Being Scottish and being at Everton for a decade were the main reasons for his appointment IMO.

It is definitely a massive board screw up to have both the manager and the MD starting the jobs at the same time.



But blaming Woodward only makes sense if Moyes was giving him legitimate targets and he was missing them. It's not up to the MD to tell his manager that his squad is lacking if the manager thinks the squad is fine.







I don't think Everton were ever up for selling two of their best players to their former manager. Everton were absolutely fine if neither player was sold. Don't forget that Fellaini had to go into Everton on deadline day and pretty much plead with them to go through with the transfer. I think Fellaini could have been losing millions in "loyalty" payments by pushing through his move like that. Everton weren't selling the pair unless Man United drowned them in money.



Just 80 million quid spent on a title winning side to maintain them?? I don't think Man Utd are a club who ever want to spend 80m on side that just won the title. I don't think the Glazers care about the football enough to do that, they own the club to make themselves more money. And I don't think the appointment of Moyes was done with the expectation that he'd be spending that amount of money.

Only if you're solely blaming Woodward. I'm simply saying that he should be included in any criticism of Moyes, as the root of the problems were not addressed in the summer, and from the outside it is impossible to know how much was down to which of the two so you can't really pick one out to criticise for it.







But also don't forget that Fellaini had a release clause of about £22m at that stage, so they possibly would have had to. £17-18m for a 29-year-old Baines with Oviedo already there and a couple of months to spend the money could well have appealed a lot.







Firstly, I'm not saying they should have signed Fellaini. They could have just signed Baines, but for a better price than they offered. I was only trying to make the point that if they were intent on both, they could/should have made sure of it much earlier and then moved on to other targets. The level of doubt about them in the summer was huge, so IMO they needed to get some business done quickly to show that they were still (at least intent on being) top dogs. When they didn't, they effectively just strengthened the impression in prospective signings' minds that their star was on the fall, and the longer it went on the harder they were making it for themselves.



Secondly, Manchester City showed how not spending comparatively much after a title win can blow up in your face. This time around they spent over £90m, Chelsea brought back Mourinho and spent £55-60m, Spurs £105m (albeit losing Bale), Liverpool about £50m and Arsenal bagged one of the players Man Utd should have been after for £42m. Having just lost the biggest asset at the club, the best player of his generation retiring, and arguably their best remaining player seeming to want out as well as age catching up with several others, if they genuinely didn't think they needed to spend big with the squad they had then they're morons.



Also, looking at things now, how much would missing the Champions League cost them? Along with the knock-on effect on recruitment/retention/transfer fees? Not spending enough last summer will cost them at least as much money IMO, whether it be directly in terms of prize money/CL revenue, or indirectly in having to offer bigger wages and clubs raising their prices as Man Utd get increasingly in need/desperate for quality players.

I don't remember the MDs of Manchester getting gushing praise for Man United's success over the years. I don't remember anyone praising Everton's MD for his work in keeping Everton in the PL. But when Man United hit the wall after appointing Moyes it's time to question the work of the main man behind the scenes? I just don't buy it.







I think Everton losing a manager to Man United for nothing, plus losing their "best" player due to a release clause means they don't allow Baines to go unless there's an element of extra compensation for the other two.



I don't think Everton would have flogged Fellaini on the last day without Fellaini asking them to let him go. Don't forget Moyes's utterly pathetic "If I was still Everton manager and players were asking me to let them go to Man United I wouldn't be able to stand in their way".







I do think that they had other players that they wanted before Fellaini but because they didn't happen they ended up grabbing him.







In the summer David Moyes was The Chosen One. Jose Mourinho was mortified about not getting the United job and spending all day calling the reception at Old Trafford and crying on the phone because they'd picked Moyes ahead of him.



There were doubting voices about Moyes. I always thought it was a terrible appointment and even I've been shocked about it turning out this bad. But most of the noises from Manchester were that they were happy that they'd got Moyes and they'd rejected Mourinho to get him.







When United sold Ronaldo to Madrid they pretty much banked the money and made do with small scale replacements.

If they're not willing to spend fees they get to replace an on field talent like Ronaldo then it's not likely they're going to be overly willing to spend 80m adding to a title winning team, especially when they've appointed a manager like Moyes who has virtually no experience of top level players.



And while Man United are utterly terrible right now, they are not anywhere near as bad as they look right now. I think they would have fully expected Moyes to deliver a problem free top 4 finish without any new signings.







Daniel Levy was a genius before the season started with the awesome way he managed to spend the Bale money. Right now he's a moron because most of the money has been wasted and he's having to appoint Tim Sherwood as manager because AVB's been canned.



The only signing United made in the summer was Fellaini. According to most United fans opinions I've read, he's been a bust and simply not Man Utd standard. So they've possibly blown 10m on that wrong signing when loss and wages are considered.

The main lesson that City learned was the need to get the groundwork done before the transfer window opens. In 2012 the club wasted too much time chasing Cavani, RVP, Martinez and De Rossi when it was obvious that those players weren't interested. After running out of time to sign players they really wanted they ended up having to make do with Garcia and Sinclair. This year the business was done early. The £90m is a tad misleading since the signings were partially funded by the sales of Balotelli and Tevez. Apparently the combined wages of Negredo, Fernandhino, Navas and Jovetic are less than half what City were paying Tevez and Balotelli.



United were always going to struggle with Moyes starting relatively late and insisting on going for players that he was very familiar with.

Kenwright's been brilliant for Everton.



But you're still missing my point. I'm not saying it's Woodward's fault and not Moyes'. I'm saying that it's one of them, or a combination of them, but from the outside we can't possibly know, so when criticising their appalling summer recruitment you have to include both and judge them as a pair, because between them they made a hash of it. Had they not both been new to their roles there would be some sort of track record to make an educated guess as to where the likely fault was, but seeing as neither have any experience of negotiating big money buys it's practically impossible to say because we simply don't know enough.







£18m for a 29-year-old fullback would be a great price for 'extra compensation'.







Moyes has come out with some absolute drivel since taking the job, you won't get any argument from me there.







I think that's very possible.







Regardless of how Moyes has done so far, I still don't personally think that Mourinho would have been a good choice for Man Utd.







But the vital differences are that they had a better overall squad then, a better manager then, and less serious rivals then. The time has come around again that the Man Utd team needs rebuilding. Clearly, Ferguson didn't have the appetite to do it any more (no criticism at all there, he's done his stint). Whoever was to take on the job was always going to require some big money to do it.



Try not to fixate on the £80m, too. I only picked that out as the likely money they would have needed to get their targets, because the fact that they missed out on who they openly admitted wanting was a problem on two counts; they didn't strengthen the team; and they made themselves look weaker in the transfer market.







The real difference between this season and last season is that they're tending to get the results their performances deserve, whereas last year they kept grinding out results regardless. Top 4 should have been possible, but not probable without recruitment.







Levy did go about his spending in a smart way by doing it before Bale went, because they would have probably been made to overspend even further if teams had seen them coming with the Bale money. It was common knowledge what Man Utd needed/still need, and even who they wanted, so they were never going to get them making the kind of offers they did and I really don't understand why they were trying it. Their disastrous season so far is only increasing the premiums clubs will now add if/when they come knocking and has made them look foolish.

Im sorry, but how can Levy be a genius for spending 100m on players that bar one, his manager didnt want? The ironic thing is all them signings have been pretty useless yet AVB gets sacked. :S



Regards



King James

Quote Vincent Kompany: Man City quadruple a matter of time.'" www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25765975 Man City have spent a billion quid and taken 6 years to manage to pick up one league title and one FA Cup. A quadruple being inevitable? Moronic talk from a club who've actually given slim returns compared to their outlay. CFC have won the CL in recent time. We have a manager who's won it twice with other clubs. But there's nothing inevitable about us ever winning the CL ever again. Man City have actually managed to make it out of the group stages for the first time and they think that not only is it inevitable that they'll win it but they'll win everything else at the same time. I admire the ambition. I think that most top clubs should be making similar aims. But this is just talking big before you've even earned the right.

Quote Vincent Kompany: Man City quadruple a matter of time.'" www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25765975 Man City have spent a billion quid and taken 6 years to manage to pick up one league title and one FA Cup. A quadruple being inevitable? Moronic talk from a club who've actually given slim returns compared to their outlay. CFC have won the CL in recent time. We have a manager who's won it twice with other clubs. But there's nothing inevitable about us ever winning the CL ever again. Man City have actually managed to make it out of the group stages for the first time and they think that not only is it inevitable that they'll win it but they'll win everything else at the same time. I admire the ambition. I think that most top clubs should be making similar aims. But this is just talking big before you've even earned the right.

Footballer makes daft comment. Shocking



In fact its a disappointingly unambitious comment when you consider that the stock answer to this sort of loaded question is "We try to win every game"

Proper teams will just motivate themselves without opening their big mouths.



Regards



King James

Nice moment from Mourinho today.

How will Mata fit in at United when Kagawa can't?

Moyes hasn't played Kagawa. He will play Mata.



That's if Chelsea are retarded enough to actually do it.



The only worrying report for me is Martin Samuel's article saying that CFC would be wrong to sell to United. I agree with Samuel totally. But the way Samuel writes it's as if the deal is pretty much already completed.



Most of the rest of the speculation just seems to be BS to me. Ballbag is reporting that we want 32m or an exchange with Rooney. United say 32m is too much and no on Rooney. The Telegraph say around 40m with Mata asking for a move (which IMO will mean he misses out on "loyalty" payments worth millions).



How can one paper say that 32 is too much, while another is saying it's going to be 40 plau CFC not paying Mata's golden goodbye?



If Man United are offered Mata for 32m and they aren't snapping our hands off then they are just as retarded as we are.



My main hope is that we keep Mata. Having a fresh Mata to come in in the title run in will be an enormous boost. If he does go, I want him to go to PSG or Spain. If Mata went to United for 32m I'm off to London to give Roman and Jose a beating.

My initial reaction to the reports was that it was probably mischief by Chelsea. Tempt United into making a bid for Mata but turn it down leaving United with more egg on face. Payback for Rooney. Then do a swap in summer. But the tone of the articles in a few papers seem to suggest the deal is likely.



To answer my own question, the only way I can see Mata fitting is if United sell Rooney. But if they were going to do that they might as well have given Kagawa an extended run in his best position whilst Rooney is out.

Payback for Rooney? What did Man Utd do? Chelsea wanted Rooney, I think Rooney wanted Chelsea. Man United said "No effing way." Jose said Rooney needed to ask for a transfer if he wanted to leave. Rooney says nothing.



I think Chelsea were wasting their time trying to get a player they were unlikely to get. I think Rooney was again being a by wanting to leave Old Trafford. I'm struggling to imagine what Man Utd did wrong.







Martin Samuel's tone worried me because I like reading his articles and most of the time I think he's pretty much correct.



But the rest of the media are a bunch of know-nothing s who have written a million "done deal" stories that turn out to be nonsense. This has been a quiet, boring transfer window and they are desperate for something to write about. The disparity of the transfer fees for Mata indicates to me that they're all jumping on this to fill their papers but there's actually not much in it.



If Chelsea are truly wanting rid of Mata, I do think they might be leaking Mata's exit to Man United as a way of forcing someone like PSG or a Spanish side to jump in. But Mata to Manchester United makes absolutely no sense to me.







I actually think Moyes should be trying to get Mata because signing Mata could be the thing that keeps him in his job. He's been dreadful so far, likely to miss out on the top 4, if he loses tonight I could see him getting the axe tomorrow (that's why I think they'll win tonight, only to be well beaten in the final). Signing Juan Mata from Chelsea would be such a boost for United I think it would buy him a couple of seasons. It would be a stunning signing for Moyes and proof he can bring players in.

Is just under £37 million enough to appease you, or is your fighting mission to London still on??....

Will Mata be enough to propel us to trophies? Who knows, but, it would be a major coup for Utd AND for Moyes, and it would be something of a kick in the teeth for Everton, Liverpool and Spurs chasing 4th, as i believe a signing like Mata, and getting Rooney/RVP back WILL be enough to get us to 4th

It will certainly cushion the blow of when Rooney and Van Persie leave in the summer, and will be a good start in what will be a fairly substantial rebuild of the United squad.