Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:22 pm  

Cibaman wrote:

United next week
Sunderland 16th April
Villa 7th May

Our away fixtures are Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Palace, Everton. Palace will be scrapping for survival, we have a shocking record at Goodison.

IF City do win the league it will almost certainly be at the death having spent just a few days in first place.

That fixture list looks like a right sod for city, especially those away games at everton and palace.

When people look at a title run they tend to think win win win potential loss, win win, but people rarely factor in draws.

Some of those fixtures have draws written all over them for city, and it will only take a couple of draws to negate the games in hand they have.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 12:40 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I agree that the scheduling helped our league victory, along with the absence of Aguero. But I would point out that virtually every journo, and most "neutral", thought that we were going to Manchester to get an absolute hiding. We were supposedly going to go there and "park the bus" and we were going to fail and get smacked like every other club had before.

I meant Chelsea got lucky playing Liverpool after they'd played City away. Our two hardest games of the year were played back to back at the worst time of year. We gave a good account of ourselves in both games and should have taken more than we did.

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

I don't think you've come on anywhere near as much as Liverpool fans and the media claim. You've benefited from even more improvement from Suarez. You've benefited from Sturridge linking up and forming a great strike partnership with him(I told you he was good at the beginning of the season, when you were wanting someone else brought in above him if Suarez did go). You've benefited from having no commitments in Europe, and going out of the cups pretty quickly.

But personally I think this is a false dawn for you similar to Benitez's title challenge. I think Brenton's getting massively overhyped and I think he'll end up crashing and burning.

I think you're clouding your views a little bit there. It's a results based business as we say and you just don't achieve those results without doing something very right. Players like Henderson, Allen and Flanagan have really stepped up and established themselves as solid players. Henderson isn't a master of anything but he's been superb this season, Allen has finally settled into a groove with the ball and doesn't look like a passenger, whilst Flanagan, despite his limitations, is defending comfortably at this level. Sterling has improved loads, again, despite limitations. Other players like Skrtel, Gerrard and even Glen Johnson have returned to form that we haven't seen for a few years now. Gerrard is maturing into a player with a brain, something I felt he wouldn't be able to do yet he's played varying roles this year, all with success. Rodgers is not only picking the correct team most weeks, he's getting his tactics and subs right and he deserves all the praise he's getting. If one manager (Moyes) is getting panned for doing everything wrong, it's only right that we praise the man that's seemingly doing everything right.

The 'false dawn' will be set with how we follow this year up. You only have to look at a couple of teams across Europe to see how the big teams can pick your team apart, Dortmund will be targeted again this summer and I imagine Atletico Madrid will too. We probably fall into that bracket of 'not quite a mega club' so the bigger teams will challenge us, but we have to hold on to everybody and add a few extra faces. By the way, I'm not comparing our team's quality to Dortmund and Atleti, just that there are bigger/richer teams in the league/continent than us that probably feel they can take a couple of our star players.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:47 am  

Roddy B wrote:

I meant Chelsea got lucky playing Liverpool after they'd played City away. Our two hardest games of the year were played back to back at the worst time of year. We gave a good account of ourselves in both games and should have taken more than we did.

Ok, I get what you were saying now. I think I got caught up in replying to a couple of different people one after the other which lead to me misunderstanding you. Kind of like a forum version of the bad Christmas/NY footballing fixture list.

I definitely agree that the fixture list screwed you by having you play Boxing Day at Citeh and then backing up at the weekend playing away to us. But in the wider context of December you also had some big advantages. We were playing our ninth game in Dec, you were playing your 7th. You were in magnificent form in the weeks before, posting wins of 5-1, 4-1, a 5-0 away win and 3-1 home win before the Citeh and our game. You played really well against Citeh, probably deserving to win and had a quick game so didn't have time to dwell on your loss.

Fixture lists always have swings v roundabouts. We played at Old Trafford in Man United's first home game of the season. We went there pretty much not to lose so accepted the 0-0 draw which probably cost us 2 points had we played them at any other time this season. You played them on Sunday, which should have been about 50 times harder than it was. You got them at a time when they seem to be intent on sacking David Moyes. IMO Man United at most other times would have been intent on injuring Suarez or getting him riled up to be picking up a season long ban. Instead they walked on to the pitch with Moyes Out t-shirts and played the game with the main intention of giving as many soft pens away as possible.

As any right thinking oppo fan regarding Man United, I'm firmly in the "Keep him for the full 6 years" camp regarding Moyes. He's been totally dreadful for them, worse than anyone could have imagined. But on Sunday I hated Moyes as much as the most rabid United fans and I got on the computer on Monday hoping the useless git had been fired.

I think you're clouding your views a little bit there. It's a results based business as we say and you just don't achieve those results without doing something very right. Players like Henderson, Allen and Flanagan have really stepped up and established themselves as solid players. Henderson isn't a master of anything but he's been superb this season, Allen has finally settled into a groove with the ball and doesn't look like a passenger, whilst Flanagan, despite his limitations, is defending comfortably at this level. Sterling has improved loads, again, despite limitations. Other players like Skrtel, Gerrard and even Glen Johnson have returned to form that we haven't seen for a few years now. Gerrard is maturing into a player with a brain, something I felt he wouldn't be able to do yet he's played varying roles this year, all with success. Rodgers is not only picking the correct team most weeks, he's getting his tactics and subs right and he deserves all the praise he's getting. If one manager (Moyes) is getting panned for doing everything wrong, it's only right that we praise the man that's seemingly doing everything right.

I just think you've overachieved this season and the problem with overachieving is that you can't maintain it.

I think Moyes is gone as Man United manager if they go out weakly to Olympiakos tonight. Rodgers is probably heading for the MotY award, a new long contract and he's even been touted, IMO ridiculously, as a possible Barca manager.

But I actually think that Rodgers has been spectacularly lucky that Suarez has continued his rise, and helped most of your other players to peak as well, while RVP has gone from the title winning striker back to his injury prone Arsenal days.

If RVP had duplicated his previous season then Man United would probably be in the top 4 right now. If Suarez had bit someone or got got done for racial abuse again I think you're down in 7th.

The 'false dawn' will be set with how we follow this year up. You only have to look at a couple of teams across Europe to see how the big teams can pick your team apart, Dortmund will be targeted again this summer and I imagine Atletico Madrid will too. We probably fall into that bracket of 'not quite a mega club' so the bigger teams will challenge us, but we have to hold on to everybody and add a few extra faces. By the way, I'm not comparing our team's quality to Dortmund and Atleti, just that there are bigger/richer teams in the league/continent than us that probably feel they can take a couple of our star players.

I hate FFP. I think it's a BS con from **** clubs like Bayern and Arsenal that they've managed to push through even though it was blatantly self-serving. I think the initial target was definitely us, and it's since fallen on Citeh, PSG and Monaco as well.

As I'm not an accountant so I hate all this recent Arsenal driven BS about cheering about financial results.

But I actually suspect that you're not going to be able to bring in any new faces or you are risking getting kicked out of the CL, if you qualify, in 2015/16. I just think it would be so funny if FFP ends up getting killed because Liverpool are excluded from it. And I think it would happen too if you ended up being a victim. After you won the 2005 CL Final but didn't qualify with your league position UEFA changed the rules just to let you in. After 2012 when we won the CL Final to steal Tottenham's place Platini said he didn't think it was fair and wanted to stop the winners qualifying that way.

[TimperleySaint]

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:48 am  

Odds on a United defeat tonight (or at least not to go thru) and Moyes out by the weekend?

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:50 am  

Mike Oxlong wrote:

Odds on a United defeat tonight (or at least not to go thru) and Moyes out by the weekend?

Moyes is 3/1 on being the next manager to leave, which is the same odds as no manager sacked between now and the end of the season.

Pepe Mel 15/8
Chris Hughton 11/4
Tim Sherwood 4/1

Moyes is Evens to leave before the end of May.

Man Utd are 2/1 to qualify for the next round. Olympiacos 2/5.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:56 pm  

Cant see Moyes being sacked before the end of the season. The Glazers would be too worried about the impact on the US stock price. Much has been said about United not being a sacking club but the Tampa Bay Bucs have just appointed their 4th Head Coach since 2008. To be fair they usually give them at least two seasons. However in the socialist world of the NFL a bad season doesn't usually cost too much. The issue will be whether they're prepared to trust Moyes with a £150m transfer budget.

Its been a case of one step forward, two steps back for United most of the season. I wouldn't be too unhappy to see them go through tonight and beat West Ham before reverting to type next Tuesday.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:52 pm  

Cibaman wrote:

Cant see Moyes being sacked before the end of the season. The Glazers would be too worried about the impact on the US stock price.

If the share price was dependent on the manager, they should sack Moyes this second and appoint Gus Hiddink.

But the truth is the share price is bordering on a sham. There was a recent story about a hedge fund buying up all the available shares. I can't remember the details, but I think it's some ridiculously small share of Man United that's been sold, possibly something like 10% of Man United. The Glazer's own the other 90%. The hedge fund were buying up the last of the available 10%.

It smacks of a giant con job to me. Wolf of Wall Street stuff. They get the total value of those available shares to equal 200m quid. So now they can argue that their 90% is worth 1.8bn. So possibly some new oligarch wants to trump Roman and offers to pay them 1.9bn for their shares. They snap their hands off, and make probably a billion quid on that silly soccer club that they watched once. (Man United will be worth a shedload of cash, they could be genuinely worth 2bn. But the share price doesn't tell the true story in the way that most listed companies do.)

Much has been said about United not being a sacking club but the Tampa Bay Bucs have just appointed their 4th Head Coach since 2008. To be fair they usually give them at least two seasons. However in the socialist world of the NFL a bad season doesn't usually cost too much. The issue will be whether they're prepared to trust Moyes with a £150m transfer budget.

Man United weren't a sacking club because they had a different owner (Martin Edwards) and they had possibly the greatest British manager ever. They didn't sack their manager because there was no need. But they did sack the 2 x FA Cup winner Ron Atkinson because he bottled a title challenge and the players were threatening to relegate the club if he didn't go.

Man United believe their own deluded hype about not being a sacking club in the same way that you Citeh fans believe that Man City is a sustainable business and all your sponsorship deals are genuine. Mancs just aren't very smart.

Its been a case of one step forward, two steps back for United most of the season. I wouldn't be too unhappy to see them go through tonight and beat West Ham before reverting to type next Tuesday.

I want him to stay because I do think he's out of his depth. I do think they'll sack him if they lose tonight But I guess sacking him might have complicated contractual issues. It might be that he needs to miss out on top 4 to be liable to the sack, so they have to wait until it's mathematically certain before sending him on his way. I certainly doubt Man United's 6 year deal they did with him makes them liable for the full 5 years remaining after he's been so dreadful.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:21 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Man United believe their own deluded hype about not being a sacking club in the same way that you Citeh fans believe that Man City is a sustainable business and all your sponsorship deals are genuine. Mancs just aren't very smart.

..... That's hilarious coming from a Chelsea fan, the club who would truly collapse like a pack of cards, if their owner ever decided to walk away.

As for Moyes, I don't think he is under any threat at the moment, simply because Sir Alex will not let it happen because it will make him look a prick - I think he's got the summer transfer window to try and build his own side and then he gets until Christmas to make it work.

Even the most ardent Moyes critic would concede he was dealt a raw deal with that squad that Fergie left him - The worst thing that could have happened for Moyes was RVP single-handedly dragging a mediocre United side to the title last year, beause it made it look like he was taking over a champion side, when, in reality, they were not much better than the rest of the top 6 or 7 .... Unfortunately for Moyes, that top 6 or 7 has stayed exactly the same but in a different order and United happen to be at the bottom of that group of clubs, who, if truth be told, don't have very much between them, bar the odd very good individual, like Suarez, Hazard and Aguero.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:12 am  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

:lol: ..... That's hilarious coming from a Chelsea fan, the club who would truly collapse like a pack of cards, if their owner ever decided to walk away.

I am under no illusions that the success we've had since Roman took over is totally down to him. We might have had a few cups, but that would probably be it. We certainly wouldn't have been players like Hazard, Drogba and Oscar at our club without Roman. The purchase of players would have been significantly lower quality and lower profile. We'd have probably had an Everton-like decade rather than been slightly behind United in collecting trophies.

However, it is simply nonsense to say we're any more liable than all the other billionaire owned clubs to collapse. We're all in the same boat if our owners chose to walk away. If you think we'd "truly collapse" while others wouldn't then I'd be interested to read why that's so, but I doubt you'd be able to back the claim up at all.

As for Moyes, I don't think he is under any threat at the moment, simply because Sir Alex will not let it happen because it will make him look a prick - I think he's got the summer transfer window to try and build his own side and then he gets until Christmas to make it work.

Even the most ardent Moyes critic would concede he was dealt a raw deal with that squad that Fergie left him - The worst thing that could have happened for Moyes was RVP single-handedly dragging a mediocre United side to the title last year, beause it made it look like he was taking over a champion side, when, in reality, they were not much better than the rest of the top 6 or 7 .... Unfortunately for Moyes, that top 6 or 7 has stayed exactly the same but in a different order and United happen to be at the bottom of that group of clubs, who, if truth be told, don't have very much between them, bar the odd very good individual, like Suarez, Hazard and Aguero.

So you're arguing that Fergie looks like a prick because he shafted Moyes by having him take over his mediocre squad and left him with an impossible job, but he won't sack Moyes because he won't want to look like a prick.

IMO Fergie is probably the greatest British manager of all time. His period of success at Man United will probably never be matched. But by appointing Moyes he made a huge mistake, he looks like a massive prick because of it. By sticking with Moyes even though he's proved to have close to no competence in running a huge club he looks like a stubborn prick.

But I'm glad they are doing it. I hope they get badly burned by it and have to deal with the consequences for a long time.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:10 pm  

Never thought I would see Manchester United celebrating winning a CL 2nd round tie like they've actually won the competition.