Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:56 pm  

Ordsall Quays Red wrote:

Far too many journo's defending Wenger on twitter last night. Saying he hardly has any money to spend and that he is actually over achieving.

It is difficult for Arsenal to compete with the financial might of clubs like Bradford and Birmingham, you've got to admit?

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:09 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Greatest piece of irony for me was the leading headline this morning. Apparently foreign players will need to have British culture lessons, apparently in an effort to tackle racism head on. So what will these culture lessons involve? Will they involve absolutely embarrassing double standards? Will people like Oliver Holt or Martin Samuel be involved in these lessons? If so, I fear for the foreign players. The fact this was the leading headline, when the majority of racist 'incidents' over the past year haven't involved foreign players, IMO, is staggering and shows where the media feel the blame lies. Just like the media blame foreign players for diving, or blame foreign players for feigning injury, and so on, and so on. Just like it was the foreign manager's fault that England were sh*te.

I agree with that. When you've got an England captain hurling out racist abuse then that's where the programme starts. The issues with foreign players coming to the UK and racism is something that clubs should already do themselves never mind the FA. Has anybody not been on a diversity course in their workplace? Why should footballers be different? Tackling racism is everybody's issue not just the FA or clubs but players, employees and fans/society as well.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:11 pm  

Roddy B wrote:

Too much irony in this thread even for my meter.

Greatest piece of irony for me was the leading headline this morning. Apparently foreign players will need to have British culture lessons, apparently in an effort to tackle racism head on. So what will these culture lessons involve? Will they involve absolutely embarrassing double standards? Will people like Oliver Holt or Martin Samuel be involved in these lessons? If so, I fear for the foreign players. The fact this was the leading headline, when the majority of racist 'incidents' over the past year haven't involved foreign players, IMO, is staggering and shows where the media feel the blame lies. Just like the media blame foreign players for diving, or blame foreign players for feigning injury, and so on, and so on. Just like it was the foreign manager's fault that England were sh*te.

The irony is that the panel rejected Suarez's claim that it was down to "cultural differences" that he racially abused Evra. It was just Liverpool's successful media BS campaign to try and undermine the verdict that the excuse has been accepted.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:22 pm  

McClennan wrote:

I agree with that. When you've got an England captain hurling out racist abuse then that's where the programme starts. The issues with foreign players coming to the UK and racism is something that clubs should already do themselves never mind the FA. Has anybody not been on a diversity course in their workplace? Why should footballers be different? Tackling racism is everybody's issue not just the FA or clubs but players, employees and fans/society as well.

The FA should be administering to football, not pandering to pressure groups who are pushing their own agendas.

If the FA do feel the need to teach professional footballers things that 12 year old kids already know, then the priorities should be placed on getting players to stop driving drunk and driving their supercars recklessly. But the anti-drink driving lobby don't have anything like the media clout like the anti-racism lobby do.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:38 pm  

I think the entire sport has to take a step back and realise how self infatuated it has become. It is the clubs that do the damage, not the players really.

Suarez racially abused a player, a serious incident, but one easily dealt with. Instead of sacking him like they should have done, or fining and suspending him, Liverpool campaigned against the allegations, to the point of having their players wear t-shirts. Now all those players are tainted with supporting a racist. As someone I heard quoted on the radio the other day said, football exists in a moral vacuum. Liverpool would have defended Suarez to the hilt no matter what he'd done, simply because he's a valuable asset to them in both footballing and financial terms. Same with Chelsea and Terry. Rather than sack him or severely punish him, they support him fully.

Cultural education of the foreign players seems a strange move to me. It is just as important to educate the English players.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:03 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

I think the entire sport has to take a step back and realise how self infatuated it has become. It is the clubs that do the damage, not the players really.

Suarez racially abused a player, a serious incident, but one easily dealt with. Instead of sacking him like they should have done, or fining and suspending him, Liverpool campaigned against the allegations, to the point of having their players wear t-shirts. Now all those players are tainted with supporting a racist. As someone I heard quoted on the radio the other day said, football exists in a moral vacuum. Liverpool would have defended Suarez to the hilt no matter what he'd done, simply because he's a valuable asset to them in both footballing and financial terms. Same with Chelsea and Terry. Rather than sack him or severely punish him, they support him fully.

Cultural education of the foreign players seems a strange move to me. It is just as important to educate the English players.

An Everton fan would fully advocate other clubs sack players for misdemeanour's. Because then Everton could sign them, like they did with Duncan Ferguson after he headbutted an opponent and was subsequently jailed for it.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:49 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

The FA should be administering to football, not pandering to pressure groups who are pushing their own agendas.

If the FA do feel the need to teach professional footballers things that 12 year old kids already know, then the priorities should be placed on getting players to stop driving drunk and driving their supercars recklessly. But the anti-drink driving lobby don't have anything like the media clout like the anti-racism lobby do.

Interesting point but wouldn't that fall under dependency problems e.g. drugs, alcohol, gambling? I don't know what the official FA line is but most clubs (certainly bigger clubs) will have policies that support these issues. Racism is bullying and football clearly has an issue with it so I don't think it's a pressure group thing that's driving the change. There's been enough black players coming out and saying that it's an issue to suggest to me that this is more than a fad. I mean, they can't all be complaining about it just because somebody says they should.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:22 pm  

Ordsall Quays Red wrote:

Far too many journo's defending Wenger on twitter last night. Saying he hardly has any money to spend and that he is actually over achieving. Maybe if he hadn't spent/wasted so much money on utter dross then you'd have a decent argument. He's spent close on £100 million pound these past 2 seasons alone.

Here are some of his gems too....
Koscielny - 10 million
Hleb - 11.2 million
Reyes - 13 million

Think it's harsh including them. Didn't Reyes have problems settling in? He was a class player and has had a decent career. Koscielny hasn't been bad, given a proper partner he probably would have improved his rep but Vermaelen has been regularly out. I think he's had some strong runs of form, certainly enough to claim he's been a decent buy. Not sure on the price though, especially if you compare that to how much we paid for Skrtel, who is easily better IMO.

Hleb was a good player. He was inconsistent but he came alive in his final season, earning himself a move to Barca. His dribbling and passing was generally class, his biggest problem was getting a proper position in the side. He thrived centrally but was often played out wide.

I think Wenger has a pretty good record overall but even that is deteriorating. He's spending money now but doesn't appear to be getting an awful lot from it. Podolski, Giroud, Arteta etc., they're good players but they weren't/aren't going to take Arsenal anywhere of note. The thing that's kept him going is he's always had superstars to come in and follow in the footsteps of his other superstars. Over the past few years he's lost RvP, Fabregas and Nasri but hasn't had anybody coming through to fill their boots. Wilshere's injury hasn't helped, nor did Ramsey's and that's the thing that has really set them back, those two players should be Arsenal's superstars along with Cazorla and Vermaelen. Wenger's woeful attempt at a supporting cast has left his side and dealings looking exposed.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:23 pm  

Saddened! wrote:

I think the entire sport has to take a step back and realise how self infatuated it has become. It is the clubs that do the damage, not the players really.

Suarez racially abused a player, a serious incident, but one easily dealt with. Instead of sacking him like they should have done, or fining and suspending him, Liverpool campaigned against the allegations, to the point of having their players wear t-shirts. Now all those players are tainted with supporting a racist. As someone I heard quoted on the radio the other day said, football exists in a moral vacuum. Liverpool would have defended Suarez to the hilt no matter what he'd done, simply because he's a valuable asset to them in both footballing and financial terms. Same with Chelsea and Terry. Rather than sack him or severely punish him, they support him fully.

Cultural education of the foreign players seems a strange move to me. It is just as important to educate the English players.

I agree with that to an extent and it's something I always refer too when players are charged for things like this and/or drugs, rape or violence.

If I had a court case hanging over my head for racial abuse, rape, GBH or failed a drugs test then my feet wouldn't touch the ground on the way out. I'd be suspended more than likely without pay (especially if the racial abuse/rape happened at work) and that would be the end of me. Some bloke who can kick a football carries on with his job getting paid the highly inflated wage he gets and his employer even supports him through thick and thin because as you say, financially they are worth something.

Re: Football Chat Thread PART II : Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:30 am  

Conroy wrote:

I agree with that to an extent and it's something I always refer too when players are charged for things like this and/or drugs, rape or violence.

If I had a court case hanging over my head for racial abuse, rape, GBH or failed a drugs test then my feet wouldn't touch the ground on the way out. I'd be suspended more than likely without pay (especially if the racial abuse/rape happened at work) and that would be the end of me. Some bloke who can kick a football carries on with his job getting paid the highly inflated wage he gets and his employer even supports him through thick and thin because as you say, financially they are worth something.

I don't think Dalglish's reaction in the Suarez case had anything to do with money. Football clubs seem to be programmed to automatically defend their players. They react to allegations of racial abuse etc in the same way that they do to an accusation of diving or a bad tackle.

I think you are very unfortunate if you work for an employer that would suspend you without pay for an unsubstantiated allegation before its been investigated.

Football clubs should be encouraged to adopt a neutral stance when these allegations are made. Report them to the proper authorities or carry out their own investigation if appropriate. Just don't leap to the conclusion that their player must be innocent.