Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:32 pm  

Mark wrote:

Alright. Eli does it weekly

Against no marks like the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles. Not one half decent QB amongst them and only a smattering of defensive talent. When Manning has done something more than toss up a fluke once I think we can mention him in the same sentence. Until then it's probably not worth embarrassing ourselves by trying to shoehorn him into such lofty status.

Gronk! wrote:

He does it with a team that wasn't over the salary cap too, unlike Elway.

And also faced teams that weren't over the salary cap either. IIRC Elway took the Broncos to three Superbowls before the salary cap was in place and lost to two of the greatest teams I've seen i.e. the Phil Simms' Giants and the 1989 49ers (both teams ranked in the top four teams from the 80s). Eli Manning might have won Superbowl ring earlier than Elway, however so did Jeff Hostetler and without repetition he's unlikely to pass Simms as the best Giants QB in the post-Coryell era never mind Elway.

4th Quarter Comeback Kings (including postseason and overtime, stats are from 2009 I believe)
36 Marino
34 Elway, Unitas
31 Montana
28 Manning (P)
27 Favre
24 Bledsoe
20 Brady
15 Staubach, Roethlisberger

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 pm  

McClennan wrote: Against no marks like the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles. Not one half decent QB amongst them and only a smattering of defensive talent. When Manning has done something more than toss up a fluke once I think we can mention him in the same sentence. Until then it's probably not worth embarrassing ourselves by trying to shoehorn him into such lofty status. And also faced teams that weren't over the salary cap either. IIRC Elway took the Broncos to three Superbowls before the salary cap was in place and lost to two of the greatest teams I've seen i.e. the Phil Simms' Giants and the 1989 49ers (both teams ranked in the top four teams from the 80s). Eli Manning might have won Superbowl ring earlier than Elway, however so did Jeff Hostetler and without repetition he's unlikely to pass Simms as the best Giants QB in the post-Coryell era never mind Elway. 4th Quarter Comeback Kings (including postseason and overtime, stats are from 2009 I believe) 36 Marino 34 Elway, Unitas 31 Montana 28 Manning (P) 27 Favre 24 Bledsoe 20 Brady 15 Staubach, Roethlisberger It was a tongue n cheek remark. I'm fully aware that Elway is in a different universe to Eli as a QB. Eli Manning has 19 4th quartercomebacks and 23 game winning drives, including one in the superbowl. Only 5 quarterbacks in NFL history have led their team in game winning drives to score in final two minutes. Unitas, Elway, Montana, Big Ben and Eli Manning. Manning has only played 8 seasons as well. To discount Eli Manning's in the clutch achievements is insane and clueless. 12 behind Montana and only played half as log as him? Eli won't be far from the top of that list when all is said and done. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... r=MannEl00 Tom Brady is regarded as quite a decent quarterback. (twice) INCLUDING THIS SEASON. Brett Favre did okay. That Big Ben fella has done alright, came back against him (In Pittsburgh) Have a think next time.

McClennan wrote: Against no marks like the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles. Not one half decent QB amongst them and only a smattering of defensive talent. When Manning has done something more than toss up a fluke once I think we can mention him in the same sentence. Until then it's probably not worth embarrassing ourselves by trying to shoehorn him into such lofty status. And also faced teams that weren't over the salary cap either. IIRC Elway took the Broncos to three Superbowls before the salary cap was in place and lost to two of the greatest teams I've seen i.e. the Phil Simms' Giants and the 1989 49ers (both teams ranked in the top four teams from the 80s). Eli Manning might have won Superbowl ring earlier than Elway, however so did Jeff Hostetler and without repetition he's unlikely to pass Simms as the best Giants QB in the post-Coryell era never mind Elway. 4th Quarter Comeback Kings (including postseason and overtime, stats are from 2009 I believe) 36 Marino 34 Elway, Unitas 31 Montana 28 Manning (P) 27 Favre 24 Bledsoe 20 Brady 15 Staubach, Roethlisberger It was a tongue n cheek remark. I'm fully aware that Elway is in a different universe to Eli as a QB. Eli Manning has 19 4th quartercomebacks and 23 game winning drives, including one in the superbowl. Only 5 quarterbacks in NFL history have led their team in game winning drives to score in final two minutes. Unitas, Elway, Montana, Big Ben and Eli Manning. Manning has only played 8 seasons as well. To discount Eli Manning's in the clutch achievements is insane and clueless. 12 behind Montana and only played half as log as him? Eli won't be far from the top of that list when all is said and done. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/p ... r=MannEl00 Tom Brady is regarded as quite a decent quarterback. (twice) INCLUDING THIS SEASON. Brett Favre did okay. That Big Ben fella has done alright, came back against him (In Pittsburgh) Have a think next time.

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:57 pm  

Mark wrote:

It was a tongue n cheek remark. I'm fully aware that Elway is in a different universe to Eli as a QB.

Eli Manning has 19 4th quartercomebacks and 23 game winning drives, including one in the superbowl. Only 5 quarterbacks in NFL history have led their team in game winning drives to score in final two minutes. Unitas, Elway, Montana, Big Ben and Eli Manning. Manning has only played 8 seasons as well. To discount Eli Manning's in the clutch achievements is insane and clueless. 12 behind Montana and only played half as log as him? Eli won't be far from the top of that list when all is said and done.

All valid points sir if he progresses as expected. Currently it's a stretch to compare him with legends on the back of projected stats especially based on a guy who's been to two Pro Bowls in eight years with no All-Pro appearances during the same time i.e. the best are remembered as clutch players because of a career and not just stats. Manning has some time but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:02 pm  

McClennan wrote:

All valid points sir if he progresses as expected. Currently it's a stretch to compare him with legends on the back of projected stats especially based on a guy who's been to two Pro Bowls in eight years with no All-Pro appearances during the same time i.e. the best are remembered as clutch players because of a career and not just stats. Manning has some time but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Not comparing their careers. Players are remembered as clutch players due to their play in the clutch. any NFL expert and most NFL fans will tell you he is great in the clutch.

Most 4th quarter TD passes in a season?

Eli Manning 15
Peyton 14
Unitas 14

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:20 pm  

Gronk! wrote:

He does it with a team that wasn't over the salary cap too, unlike Elway.

Weren't the years where Denver were over the salary cap the years when they were beating everyone through the rushing game and Terrell Davis? The "drive" years and the great comebacks were the late 1980s and early 1990s when Denver had basically an average team that ended up winning the AFC West and often the whole AFC because Elway was carrying them.

That's the big argument I give for Elway against all the other all time great QBs...for most of Elways career he was surrounded by average players, it was only at the back end of his career when he suddenly had Davis, Smith, McAffrey, Griffith, Sharpe and co that he had the superstars.

Also as regards the salary cap breach, whilst yes it was bad that the Broncos were over the cap, it wasn't like Mike Shanahan went out and bought all the game's big guns and bought the title. That Broncos team was largely made up of lower draft picks, free agents and undrafted players who became big at the Broncos (plus the odd big trade like Romanowski), they might have ended up being paid more than they should under the cap but it was a nifty piece of coaching and signing to put that team together. The same could be said about the Melbourne Storm picking up a load of players from the Queensland Cup.

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:21 pm  

McClennan wrote:

It should also be noted that Elway's stats were never that great. Sure he passed for tonnes of yards over his career (yet only topped 4,000 yds once) but his completion rates, TD/Int comparison and passer rating (his highest ever was just 92.8 and his career rating is less than both Ken O'Brien and Jeff George) were nothing like a Montana, Marino or Young. All that yet nobody disputes Elway's position amongst the elite in the sport because what he knew how to do was win. His ability to compete was probably second only to Montana and I'm sure Denver fans would take a reincarnation of that spirit over Manning and Favre's stats any day.

Yes, when the trivia questions come up about who holds such and such a passing record for Denver, the answer is usually Jake Plummer rather than Elway

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:29 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Against no marks like the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles. Not one half decent QB amongst them and only a smattering of defensive talent. When Manning has done something more than toss up a fluke once I think we can mention him in the same sentence. Until then it's probably not worth embarrassing ourselves by trying to shoehorn him into such lofty status.

And also faced teams that weren't over the salary cap either. IIRC Elway took the Broncos to three Superbowls before the salary cap was in place and lost to two of the greatest teams I've seen i.e. the Phil Simms' Giants and the 1989 49ers (both teams ranked in the top four teams from the 80s). Eli Manning might have won Superbowl ring earlier than Elway, however so did Jeff Hostetler and without repetition he's unlikely to pass Simms as the best Giants QB in the post-Coryell era never mind Elway.

Although a Broncos fan I have to give some balance here.

Elway did take the Broncos to three Super Bowls however it's not fair to claim that Elway was up against great teams and Eli Manning isn't. All of the great teams in that era were in the NFC. Denver were an average team with a great QB and that was too much for most of the other average AFC teams of that era that they faced in the playoffs. When they had to face great teams in playoffs football it was always in the Super Bowl and they got some big hidings from the Giants, Redskins and 49ers. Then that mantle passed to Buffalo Bills when again an average to decent team with a very good QB in Jim Kelly took over from the Broncos as the best of the average AFC, and again they would get to Super Bowls and come up against great Redskin and Cowboys teams and get their butts kicked.

It was actually only when the later Broncos team with Terrell Davis and Shannon Sharpe in it came around, that the AFC had a really great team.

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:41 pm  

Mark wrote:

Most 4th quarter TD passes in a season?

Fernando Torres had a good season once too

sally cinnamon wrote:

All of the great teams in that era were in the NFC.

I'd agree with that. The AFC sucks. Always has, always will except when the Cowboys are playing.

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:44 pm  

You will like this one McClennan, Tony LaRussa has a bet in place with former Giants GM Ernie Accorsi on how will win more superbowls Eli or Peyton.

Looking good for Accorsi at this point.

Accorsi "Eli has attributes that don't show up on stat sheets"

This time next year he will be the Giants leader in TD's and will be the leader in yardage when his career ends. Is also the most durable QB in the NFL.

Re: The All new NFL Chat thread including playoff talk : Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:49 pm  

Mark wrote:

You will like this one McClennan, Tony LaRussa has a bet in place with former Giants GM Ernie Accorsi on how will win more superbowls Eli or Peyton.

Looking good for Accorsi at this point.

Accorsi "Eli has attributes that don't show up on stat sheets"

This time next year he will be the Giants leader in TD's and will be the leader in yardage when his career ends. Is also the most durable QB in the NFL.

What is it you want me to say? Just spit it out lol.