Re: 140 years at Belle Vue - 14th April 2019 : Sun Nov 04, 2018 2:05 pm  

Another reason it should get preserved a part of stadia history!

Re: 140 years at Belle Vue - 14th April 2019 : Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:37 pm  

newgroundb4cas wrote:

Another reason it should get preserved a part of stadia history!

the only bit you could preserve is the pitch

Re: 140 years at Belle Vue - 14th April 2019 : Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:39 pm  

Interesting, and I loved the OS map from 1893 showing the club name, but I can't see any evidence of Trinity using the ground in 1879. It seems mere speculation that it must have been 14th April as why else would they have a game two days after the Yorkshire Cup. Perhaps it was because it was a cup game, as opposed to a pre-arranged fixture?

I'd love to see a report of the first time we played rugby on that field. It's my understanding that we occupied the Alexandria Fields until 1892.

Re: 140 years at Belle Vue - 14th April 2019 : Mon Nov 05, 2018 5:04 am  

Slugger McBatt wrote: Interesting, and I loved the OS map from 1893 showing the club name, but I can't see any evidence of Trinity using the ground in 1879. It seems mere speculation that it must have been 14th April as why else would they have a game two days after the Yorkshire Cup. Perhaps it was because it was a cup game, as opposed to a pre-arranged fixture? I'd love to see a report of the first time we played rugby on that field. It's my understanding that we occupied the Alexandria Fields until 1892. I was looking for any evidence to support the date when we first played at the current site / moved there permanently. I was using the maps to suggest that the 1892 date was perhaps not as certain as is asserted. Google maps were pretty rubbish back in the 1880s and drawing a map took a lot of work. The map was published in 1893, which gives the absolute latest date of occupation as 1892, but the survey itself was carried out between 1888 and 1890. No playing fields are marked off Elm (Tree) Street and the current stadium looks well established by the time the map information was gathered (latest 1890). The quote on Wiki from Reverend Marshall in "Football - the Rugby Union Game" (first published 1892) wrote, "the club migrated to Belle Vue on the opposite side of the road to the present field, and where the first cup ties were played. In the following year a move was made to the present field." If they'd moved in 1892, surely it would have been stated here. The first cup game was on 8th December 1877. Wakefield were knocked out the week after by Halifax. The Yorkshire Cup was a huge step towards what became the 1895 split. The first ever rugby knock-out competition (following the example set by the FA in 1871/72) was very much frowned upon by the RFU, . Trinity won this competition in its 2nd year on 12th April 1879, which was a massive moment in the club's history. https://www.mullocksauctions.co.uk/lot- ... eague.html There seems to be some contradiction in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby" (again from the Wiki page): D.W Armitage writing in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973" said "From minutes of the committee it is evident that by the time the club was about ten years old [this would have been around 1883] the field on which Trinity still play had been occupied and was looked upon as the permanent home." "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973"[5] states "Their move to the arena which still forms their home did not come until late in 1892. In December of that year the club agreed to lease a field adjacent to the St Catherine's School and there they made their headquarters which have remained so throughout the rest of their history." This is where it seems to me that there is confusion over playing at the current site and making it their headquarters/ownership/leasing/abandoning the other site. Again, a map made by 1890, but published in 1893 clearly states the ground to be 'Wakefield Trinity Football Ground'. Would they have made late alterations in December 1892? Are there any newspaper articles from that time which describe the move? They were one of, if not the, top teams in the country at that time and went on to win the cup 4 times between 1879 and the split in 1895, and runners-up a further 5 times. The advent of a cup competition made the game into much more of a spectator sport and required better facilities to accommodate the crowds. They were the first team from Yorkshire to play at Cardiff Arms Park. The previous ordnance survey was in the 1850s and obviously had no sign of the club. The area around BV was still remarkably rural, and I'm not sure any detailed maps exist between those times. Does anyone have access to irrefutable evidence? Original club records? @TrintyHeritage? Does the land registry show any details of ownership of the 2 sites?

Slugger McBatt wrote: Interesting, and I loved the OS map from 1893 showing the club name, but I can't see any evidence of Trinity using the ground in 1879. It seems mere speculation that it must have been 14th April as why else would they have a game two days after the Yorkshire Cup. Perhaps it was because it was a cup game, as opposed to a pre-arranged fixture? I'd love to see a report of the first time we played rugby on that field. It's my understanding that we occupied the Alexandria Fields until 1892. I was looking for any evidence to support the date when we first played at the current site / moved there permanently. I was using the maps to suggest that the 1892 date was perhaps not as certain as is asserted. Google maps were pretty rubbish back in the 1880s and drawing a map took a lot of work. The map was published in 1893, which gives the absolute latest date of occupation as 1892, but the survey itself was carried out between 1888 and 1890. No playing fields are marked off Elm (Tree) Street and the current stadium looks well established by the time the map information was gathered (latest 1890). The quote on Wiki from Reverend Marshall in "Football - the Rugby Union Game" (first published 1892) wrote, "the club migrated to Belle Vue on the opposite side of the road to the present field, and where the first cup ties were played. In the following year a move was made to the present field." If they'd moved in 1892, surely it would have been stated here. The first cup game was on 8th December 1877. Wakefield were knocked out the week after by Halifax. The Yorkshire Cup was a huge step towards what became the 1895 split. The first ever rugby knock-out competition (following the example set by the FA in 1871/72) was very much frowned upon by the RFU, . Trinity won this competition in its 2nd year on 12th April 1879, which was a massive moment in the club's history. https://www.mullocksauctions.co.uk/lot- ... eague.html There seems to be some contradiction in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby" (again from the Wiki page): D.W Armitage writing in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973" said "From minutes of the committee it is evident that by the time the club was about ten years old [this would have been around 1883] the field on which Trinity still play had been occupied and was looked upon as the permanent home." "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973"[5] states "Their move to the arena which still forms their home did not come until late in 1892. In December of that year the club agreed to lease a field adjacent to the St Catherine's School and there they made their headquarters which have remained so throughout the rest of their history." This is where it seems to me that there is confusion over playing at the current site and making it their headquarters/ownership/leasing/abandoning the other site. Again, a map made by 1890, but published in 1893 clearly states the ground to be 'Wakefield Trinity Football Ground'. Would they have made late alterations in December 1892? Are there any newspaper articles from that time which describe the move? They were one of, if not the, top teams in the country at that time and went on to win the cup 4 times between 1879 and the split in 1895, and runners-up a further 5 times. The advent of a cup competition made the game into much more of a spectator sport and required better facilities to accommodate the crowds. They were the first team from Yorkshire to play at Cardiff Arms Park. The previous ordnance survey was in the 1850s and obviously had no sign of the club. The area around BV was still remarkably rural, and I'm not sure any detailed maps exist between those times. Does anyone have access to irrefutable evidence? Original club records? @TrintyHeritage? Does the land registry show any details of ownership of the 2 sites?

Re: 140 years at Belle Vue - 14th April 2019 : Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:17 am  

coco the fullback wrote: I was looking for any evidence to support the date when we first played at the current site / moved there permanently. I was using the maps to suggest that the 1892 date was perhaps not as certain as is asserted. Google maps were pretty rubbish back in the 1880s and drawing a map took a lot of work. The map was published in 1893, which gives the absolute latest date of occupation as 1892, but the survey itself was carried out between 1888 and 1890. No playing fields are marked off Elm (Tree) Street and the current stadium looks well established by the time the map information was gathered (latest 1890). The quote on Wiki from Reverend Marshall in "Football - the Rugby Union Game" (first published 1892) wrote, "the club migrated to Belle Vue on the opposite side of the road to the present field, and where the first cup ties were played. In the following year a move was made to the present field." If they'd moved in 1892, surely it would have been stated here. The first cup game was on 8th December 1877. Wakefield were knocked out the week after by Halifax. The Yorkshire Cup was a huge step towards what became the 1895 split. The first ever rugby knock-out competition (following the example set by the FA in 1871/72) was very much frowned upon by the RFU, . Trinity won this competition in its 2nd year on 12th April 1879, which was a massive moment in the club's history. https://www.mullocksauctions.co.uk/lot- ... eague.html There seems to be some contradiction in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby" (again from the Wiki page): D.W Armitage writing in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973" said "From minutes of the committee it is evident that by the time the club was about ten years old [this would have been around 1883] the field on which Trinity still play had been occupied and was looked upon as the permanent home." "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973"[5] states "Their move to the arena which still forms their home did not come until late in 1892. In December of that year the club agreed to lease a field adjacent to the St Catherine's School and there they made their headquarters which have remained so throughout the rest of their history." This is where it seems to me that there is confusion over playing at the current site and making it their headquarters/ownership/leasing/abandoning the other site. Again, a map made by 1890, but published in 1893 clearly states the ground to be 'Wakefield Trinity Football Ground'. Would they have made late alterations in December 1892? Are there any newspaper articles from that time which describe the move? They were one of, if not the, top teams in the country at that time and went on to win the cup 4 times between 1879 and the split in 1895, and runners-up a further 5 times. The advent of a cup competition made the game into much more of a spectator sport and required better facilities to accommodate the crowds. They were the first team from Yorkshire to play at Cardiff Arms Park. The previous ordnance survey was in the 1850s and obviously had no sign of the club. The area around BV was still remarkably rural, and I'm not sure any detailed maps exist between those times. Does anyone have access to irrefutable evidence? Original club records? @TrintyHeritage? Does the land registry show any details of ownership of the 2 sites? It would be fascinating to know. Some of the later OS maps show the cycle track around it, and I agree that the permanence of the site in the 1893 site does suggest using it before late 1892. Like you say, taking up a permanent lease isn't the same as using it for the first time. I think my recollection was from the JC Lindley book, now that you have quoted it.

coco the fullback wrote: I was looking for any evidence to support the date when we first played at the current site / moved there permanently. I was using the maps to suggest that the 1892 date was perhaps not as certain as is asserted. Google maps were pretty rubbish back in the 1880s and drawing a map took a lot of work. The map was published in 1893, which gives the absolute latest date of occupation as 1892, but the survey itself was carried out between 1888 and 1890. No playing fields are marked off Elm (Tree) Street and the current stadium looks well established by the time the map information was gathered (latest 1890). The quote on Wiki from Reverend Marshall in "Football - the Rugby Union Game" (first published 1892) wrote, "the club migrated to Belle Vue on the opposite side of the road to the present field, and where the first cup ties were played. In the following year a move was made to the present field." If they'd moved in 1892, surely it would have been stated here. The first cup game was on 8th December 1877. Wakefield were knocked out the week after by Halifax. The Yorkshire Cup was a huge step towards what became the 1895 split. The first ever rugby knock-out competition (following the example set by the FA in 1871/72) was very much frowned upon by the RFU, . Trinity won this competition in its 2nd year on 12th April 1879, which was a massive moment in the club's history. https://www.mullocksauctions.co.uk/lot- ... eague.html There seems to be some contradiction in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby" (again from the Wiki page): D.W Armitage writing in J.C Lindley's "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973" said "From minutes of the committee it is evident that by the time the club was about ten years old [this would have been around 1883] the field on which Trinity still play had been occupied and was looked upon as the permanent home." "100 years of Rugby - the history of Wakefield Trinity 1873-1973"[5] states "Their move to the arena which still forms their home did not come until late in 1892. In December of that year the club agreed to lease a field adjacent to the St Catherine's School and there they made their headquarters which have remained so throughout the rest of their history." This is where it seems to me that there is confusion over playing at the current site and making it their headquarters/ownership/leasing/abandoning the other site. Again, a map made by 1890, but published in 1893 clearly states the ground to be 'Wakefield Trinity Football Ground'. Would they have made late alterations in December 1892? Are there any newspaper articles from that time which describe the move? They were one of, if not the, top teams in the country at that time and went on to win the cup 4 times between 1879 and the split in 1895, and runners-up a further 5 times. The advent of a cup competition made the game into much more of a spectator sport and required better facilities to accommodate the crowds. They were the first team from Yorkshire to play at Cardiff Arms Park. The previous ordnance survey was in the 1850s and obviously had no sign of the club. The area around BV was still remarkably rural, and I'm not sure any detailed maps exist between those times. Does anyone have access to irrefutable evidence? Original club records? @TrintyHeritage? Does the land registry show any details of ownership of the 2 sites? It would be fascinating to know. Some of the later OS maps show the cycle track around it, and I agree that the permanence of the site in the 1893 site does suggest using it before late 1892. Like you say, taking up a permanent lease isn't the same as using it for the first time. I think my recollection was from the JC Lindley book, now that you have quoted it.