Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 10:24 am  

Drop the scrums.
The GF was the blueprint for what our game could and should be like - fast, ferocious, intense, skilful, full of commitment and emotion. I can’t imagine that anyone noticed the lack of scrums and if they did I’d be surprised if they thought the game would have been better with them. International laws have to be brought in to line though. It’s ridiculous that the game has different rules for NRL, SL and international games. It would be even more farcical if the NRL had scrums and we didn’t.
Reservations about 6 again - it’s a bit too subjective for me. If we keep it - and I think it’s good in principle - I think there should be some consistency in the consequences. At the moment, like a penalty, there’s the world of difference between 6 again called on the 1st tackle and it being called on the 5th tackle. How about a ‘2 more’ rule so the set is extended by 2 tackles irrespective of when the infringement took place? Refs would need to be good at counting and communicating the tackle count but it would reduce the impact of subjective calls (not knocking refs here - it’s a bloody difficult call to make)

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:38 pm  

vastman wrote:

I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. Scrums, passing and aspects of tackling are the only similarities now between the two codes.

Clearly passing and tackling stay but scrums can go for me. In a stroke that truly separates the two codes. They are now about as similar as Aussie rules, Gailic football or the NFL. Slight exaggeration don’t take literally.

Drop the word Rugby and just call the sport League and we’ve finally done it.

I get the fatigue issue but a simple way around that is to enforce the 10 meter rule. It’s impact that causes the problem imo, this wouldn’t reduce the energy loss but would reduce the physicality, which is the issue to me.

I would go with just referring to it always as 'RL'. With a full title of RL Football.
I've always thought 'rugby league' sound terrible with a northern accent.

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:19 pm  

Now Matt Dawson is moaning about the other code.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55120613

Now Matt Dawson is moaning about the other code.... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55120613

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:13 pm  

kyassor wrote:

I'm happy to see them go - when the hooker was allowed/able to challenge for the ball they were great but did slow the games down - now after a few months of no scrums I like it, I'd still prefer to have scrums that were challengeable but if we aren't going back to them then this is the next best - all or nothing

We're back to "speed of the game" being the one and only criteria. If we take it to the ultimate it'll just become a game of who can run the fastest and who can tackle the hardest, which, to a point, it has already become. The proper contested scrum added another dimension to the game and allowed a set piece that took the forwards out of the game and concentrated on the attacking skills of the half pack pair and the threequarter line up for a period. It brought about additional skill requirements of the loose forward, hooker, props and scrum halves which have become redundant in today's game. The game can only sustain so many change s before it becomes a different game altogether.
So, I'm all for proper contested scrums with strict discipline from the referee and a "shot clock" of 20 seconds.

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:37 pm  

Redscat wrote:

We're back to "speed of the game" being the one and only criteria. If we take it to the ultimate it'll just become a game of who can run the fastest and who can tackle the hardest, which, to a point, it has already become. The proper contested scrum added another dimension to the game and allowed a set piece that took the forwards out of the game and concentrated on the attacking skills of the half pack pair and the threequarter line up for a period. It brought about additional skill requirements of the loose forward, hooker, props and scrum halves which have become redundant in today's game. The game can only sustain so many change s before it becomes a different game altogether.
So, I'm all for proper contested scrums with strict discipline from the referee and a "shot clock" of 20 seconds.

I don't think there is a rule against contested scrums. The decision not to contest them is down to the coaches realising that the best way to defend or attack is not to be in the scrum, so non-contested scrums become a self-fulfilling prophecy, prompted by the decision to ignore the feeding rule.

If we decided to contest them, we would be marched down the field for penalties, or our best defenders in a heap somewhere as the attackers have departed from the contested scrum the minute the ball was free.

The death knell was the decision not to enforce the feeding rule. If that were still a rule (is it?), there would be contests, as the ball would be there to strike at. But without it, the only contest would be pushing, and without flankers to bind in the second row they collapse.

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 9:09 pm  

It would appear from your post then, Slugger. that should "contested" scrums become part of the game again it would probably require a formal set of rules to be written up and included in the "rules of the game."

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:07 pm  

Redscat wrote:

It would appear from your post then, Slugger. that should "contested" scrums become part of the game again it would probably require a formal set of rules to be written up and included in the "rules of the game."

I am not against the idea of contested scrums and can absolutely see their benefit to the game, but how would you ensure scrums were contested without taking a disproportionate amount of time in resets and then ending up more often than not in a penalty?

There are too many variables that all have to be done correctly for a successful scrum. If the only sanction is a penalty for not conforming, then all scrums will end in a penalty or ceding possession without contesting. If you could come up with a set of rules where a contested scrum is possible, I'd be all for it.

Growing up through the 70s & 80s, I 'played' as a hooker and then, though watching the pro game, I saw first-hand how the scrum 'evolved' into what it ended up as now. They should have been scrapped when it became obvious that it was seen as fair that the team with the put-in should win the scrum. Slowly the interpretations were adjusted to reduce penalties and increase the likelihood that the 'non-offending' team would gain possession that it became pointless and a waste of effort to try and contest the scrums. I'm not sure, but I think the only actual law change was for who gets the head & feed. It used to be possible that one team got the head and the other the feed (I think it depended on which half of the field you were in, but it's a while ago now).

As an aside, when I was about 10 and playing at Eastmoor, Fred Lindop often used to ref the games and I used to think he was saying 'pudding' rather than put-in.

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:29 pm  

Redscat wrote:

It would appear from your post then, Slugger. that should "contested" scrums become part of the game again it would probably require a formal set of rules to be written up and included in the "rules of the game."

I had a quick look and it appears that the feeding rule still exists:
"The ball shall be put into the scrum from the Referee’s side by holding it in a horizontal position with a point in each hand and rolling it along the ground into the tunnel formed by the opposing front row forwards."

That rule is clearly ignored. If it wasn't ignored, you would have de facto contested scrums, as there would be something to strike at. The decision to ignore it spelled the death knell for contested scrums, but why leave it there if it is deliberately ignored?

Re: Scrums - Stay or go in 2021? : Tue Dec 01, 2020 9:38 pm  

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/never-mind-the-biff-nrl-should-bring-back-the-scrum-penalty-20201201-p56ji4.html An alternative view from down under

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/never-mind-the-biff-nrl-should-bring-back-the-scrum-penalty-20201201-p56ji4.html An alternative view from down under