Captains : Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:46 pm  

There must be many areas where a professional coach's opinion is vastly different to that of the supporter. Over Christmas I was chatting to my Dad who was fortunate enough to have watched the team from the late 1930`s and particularly enjoyed the 1960`s. Derek Turners name always comes up in these conversations, unfortunately I never saw DT play, but everyone who did, along with saying what a great player he was, also to a man, tell you that he was the greatest captain the club have ever had. People refer to his uncompromising style towards his own players, stories abound of DT pinning team mates to the changing room wall for not doing their job to his standards, of severe telling offs on the field etc etc. Supporters I speak to all seem to want a captain with this same attitude, an on field captain who will bollock players, who will demand more, who gets angry, who rabble rouses, who is prepared to shout and scream at his team mates when things do not go well.
It is my impression over the last few years that our coaches did not, do not want the same thing from their captains. They want a calm, manageable sort of chap. If we look at Jason Demitrou and Danny Kirmond both were absolutely brilliant off field Community captains. Both were often criticized by supporters for a lack of passion when things were going against us, poor body language when a try is scored against us, I remember Demitrou in a game at London getting stick off fans for sulking rather than getting stuck into his team mates. I think the fans want to see a captain lay down the law, get verbally stuck in, demand more etc etc. Demitrou and Kirmond did not have this in them and it seems from last season that neither does Miller.
Do we think that there is still a place in the modern game, modern life for a Derek Turner style captain. For me the best club captains I have seen over the recent years are Paul Wellens and Kevin Sinfield, both captained talented teams and both laid down the law on the field.
I must admit I do get frustrated when our players are huddled together having conceded a try and nobody takes ownership of the situation, nobody seems to demand better etc etc. Is this because the game has moved on, players are more professional, coaches are more concerned with systems than passion. I believe that defense is as much about attitude and desire as it is about ability and is the main area where a little of the old style, Derek Turner style would serve us well. I think there were a couple of occasions last season where you could see Danny Brough wanting to give his team mates the rounds of the kitchen but held back as Miller was the captain.

Re: Captains : Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:05 pm  

bellycouldtackle wrote:

There must be many areas where a professional coach's opinion is vastly different to that of the supporter. Over Christmas I was chatting to my Dad who was fortunate enough to have watched the team from the late 1930`s and particularly enjoyed the 1960`s. Derek Turners name always comes up in these conversations, unfortunately I never saw DT play, but everyone who did, along with saying what a great player he was, also to a man, tell you that he was the greatest captain the club have ever had. People refer to his uncompromising style towards his own players, stories abound of DT pinning team mates to the changing room wall for not doing their job to his standards, of severe telling offs on the field etc etc. Supporters I speak to all seem to want a captain with this same attitude, an on field captain who will bollock players, who will demand more, who gets angry, who rabble rouses, who is prepared to shout and scream at his team mates when things do not go well.
It is my impression over the last few years that our coaches did not, do not want the same thing from their captains. They want a calm, manageable sort of chap. If we look at Jason Demitrou and Danny Kirmond both were absolutely brilliant off field Community captains. Both were often criticized by supporters for a lack of passion when things were going against us, poor body language when a try is scored against us, I remember Demitrou in a game at London getting stick off fans for sulking rather than getting stuck into his team mates. I think the fans want to see a captain lay down the law, get verbally stuck in, demand more etc etc. Demitrou and Kirmond did not have this in them and it seems from last season that neither does Miller.
Do we think that there is still a place in the modern game, modern life for a Derek Turner style captain. For me the best club captains I have seen over the recent years are Paul Wellens and Kevin Sinfield, both captained talented teams and both laid down the law on the field.
I must admit I do get frustrated when our players are huddled together having conceded a try and nobody takes ownership of the situation, nobody seems to demand better etc etc. Is this because the game has moved on, players are more professional, coaches are more concerned with systems than passion. I believe that defense is as much about attitude and desire as it is about ability and is the main area where a little of the old style, Derek Turner style would serve us well. I think there were a couple of occasions last season where you could see Danny Brough wanting to give his team mates the rounds of the kitchen but held back as Miller was the captain.

Do you not think CC is in a better position to judge as he knows the players personally, I'm assuming you don't.

As for the Turner reference, seriously that was 50 years ago, do you honestly think young men today would put up with that. It great fun hearing how Turner was etc etc but is that what you actually want nowadays? I'm no snowflake but we have moved on a long way from that kind of mentality, dear god man if you had a son playing the game would you want a 30 year old man punching him in the mouth because he thought he wasn't playing well enogh!

Re: Captains : Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:21 pm  

I remember Jason at that game and the stick he got from supporters on the touch, no he didn’t sulk and was as passionate about his captaincy as he was a player. He walked over to the supporters in question after the final whistle to discuss what their problem was, they soon clamped up and were wishing the ground would open up and swallow them, never said a dicky bird to him, very brave, a bit like some on here.

[PopTart]

Re: Captains : Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:28 pm  

Indeed. JD did not lack passion and I think he was the last one who did get the best from players.
I agree with Fish that although Turner is a legendary captain, it wouldn't work now.
Shouting and screaming has the opposite affect with many. A good captain knows when to use it.

Strong words spoken softly are more inspiring than hollow words shouted randomly.

Re: Captains : Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:43 pm  

I was fortunate enough to see DT play and have heard many tales about his leadership style, most of them no doubt true.
He was a hard man who would not tolerate failure, and although I see nothing wrong with that attitude, how you put it across to the players is what matters. No, you don't want them pinned up against the wall in the dressing room, but I personally would like to see more verbal action on field. Mistakes which have lead to a try being scored need sorting on the pitch not in a
day after discussion on the training pitch.

Re: Captains : Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:51 am  

In reply to the op.
Whilst the sentiments of your post are spot on and that most fans would like to see someone taking charge, especially if things are going wrong on the pitch, the idea of a captain pinning other players against the wall for missing a tackle or not executing a play couldn't be tolerated in the modern world and he's be sacked within a month.
Mind you, when any side appears to meekly accept defeat and nobody appears to give a damn, it would make a refreshing change to see the captain getting stuck into his players.
In the old days, they could instigate a bit of biff to get the players fired up but, again, this no longer seems to be part of the game.
I know that it doesn't look great on TV, when we are trying to promote the game but, most fans that I know, used to love a decent scrap on the pitch.

Re: Captains : Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:16 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

In reply to the op.
Whilst the sentiments of your post are spot on and that most fans would like to see someone taking charge, especially if things are going wrong on the pitch, the idea of a captain pinning other players against the wall for missing a tackle or not executing a play couldn't be tolerated in the modern world and he's be sacked within a month.
Mind you, when any side appears to meekly accept defeat and nobody appears to give a damn, it would make a refreshing change to see the captain getting stuck into his players.
In the old days, they could instigate a bit of biff to get the players fired up but, again, this no longer seems to be part of the game.
I know that it doesn't look great on TV, when we are trying to promote the game but, most fans that I know, used to love a decent scrap on the pitch.

It's a fine line as you say, I to don't mind a bit of biff and occasionally I don't mind seeing emotions boil over a little. If nothing else it's natural in such a physical game. However, there is a world of difference between that and invoking the spirit of Rockey Turner. I have no issue with the man he sounds a brilliant leader of men, that is men from 1960!

I never judge the past through modern-day sensibilities I think that's utterly foolish as these things were of their time, however, it works both ways and to transfer Turner's (or any sixties hard man) methods into some sort of cure for the modern-day sportsman is utterly absurd.

Turner and most of the rest of the game from the sixties belongs in the sixties. You can learn from the past but you should never live in it, that's just bonkers.

Re: Captains : Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:03 am  

No idea what the bonus structure is these days (and its none of our business either) but back then match winnings made a heck of a difference to those players. You can understand why you would get characters like Turner because if someone is not trying hard it affects his pocket.

Its different these days, they have a guaranteed pay each month - its just a job remember. What would you do if your manager at work pinned you up against the wall, all hell would break lose and HR would go into meltdown!

Re: Captains : Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:04 am  

Fishermanscap wrote:

It's a fine line as you say, I to don't mind a bit of biff and occasionally I don't mind seeing emotions boil over a little. If nothing else it's natural in such a physical game. However, there is a world of difference between that and invoking the spirit of Rockey Turner. I have no issue with the man he sounds a brilliant leader of men, that is men from 1960!

I never judge the past through modern-day sensibilities I think that's utterly foolish as these things were of their time, however, it works both ways and to transfer Turner's (or any sixties hard man) methods into some sort of cure for the modern-day sportsman is utterly absurd.

Turner and most of the rest of the game from the sixties belongs in the sixties. You can learn from the past but you should never live in it, that's just bonkers.

I agree.
There is good reason why that "style" of captaincy no longer exists. Although, there are times when, as a fan, the side sometimes looks like they need a rocket up their backsides and I'm not sure that we have anyone who can or would get stuck in to their team mates - maybe Big Dave or Broughy ?

Re: Captains : Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:42 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I agree.
There is good reason why that "style" of captaincy no longer exists. Although, there are times when, as a fan, the side sometimes looks like they need a rocket up their backsides and I'm not sure that we have anyone who can or would get stuck in to their team mates - maybe Big Dave or Broughy ?

Broughy may be the one to do it but I remember Ollie Wilks throwing the ball at Danny Brough in response to something Danny said to him! perhaps the players don't like on field criticism?