[PopTart]

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:19 am  

I don't disagree with your point Vastman that success is important, I just don't agree it's the only thing.

Bradford are a good example of both our points.
In Super League they were massively successful and had crowds to match.
But actually they'd always been reasonably successful. They were winning YC regularly through 80s and in plenty of finals, winning the league once I think. Just before Super League they were bobbing around 2nd and 3rd.
But their crowds were no better than ours. Av around 5k.
They won the league in first full year of super league and the rest is history........ But the big change that happened was Summer Rugby that made Odsal a nicer place to be.

Another example shows up in Premier League.
All the top attended teams are the successful ones..... Except West Ham. They have 3rd highest Av attendance but have no chance of winning anything.
It isn't just winning trophies, but it is the dream of success.
If we compete winning more than we lose, regularly, it will draw crowds. If there is a nice place to sit or stand, it will draw crowds, if we win something it will draw crowds.
The third without the other two will only draw temporary crowds.

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:46 am  

Yeah...."fair weather supporters"....my youngest daughter has been a New England Patriots fan for the past few years as they have been THE team to beat and have won the Superbowl on numerous occasions, but at the end of last season they released their star quarterback - Tom Brady - (think Danny Brough would be a similar rugby comparison), as they didn't believe he could perform at the top level any more. This season the Patriots haven't even qualified for the play-offs (whereas Brady has with his new team The Tampa Bay Buccaneers) so my youngest is now wanting to switch her allegiance to a "more successful team"

Fortunately she is still sticking with Trin though and has got her season ticket for 2021

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:00 am  

PopTart wrote:

I don't disagree with your point Vastman that success is important, I just don't agree it's the only thing.

Bradford are a good example of both our points.
In Super League they were massively successful and had crowds to match.
But actually they'd always been reasonably successful. They were winning YC regularly through 80s and in plenty of finals, winning the league once I think. Just before Super League they were bobbing around 2nd and 3rd.
But their crowds were no better than ours. Av around 5k.
They won the league in first full year of super league and the rest is history........ But the big change that happened was Summer Rugby that made Odsal a nicer place to be.

Another example shows up in Premier League.
All the top attended teams are the successful ones..... Except West Ham. They have 3rd highest Av attendance but have no chance of winning anything.
It isn't just winning trophies, but it is the dream of success.
If we compete winning more than we lose, regularly, it will draw crowds. If there is a nice place to sit or stand, it will draw crowds, if we win something it will draw crowds.
The third without the other two will only draw temporary crowds.

I never said it was the only thing but if I were to give it a percentage I’d say it’s 75%

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:05 am  

Khlav Kalash wrote:

Unless the club gets a rich backer, I'm afraid any success is going to have to come from the support and the revenue that brings. That's why I never understood the complaints about paying £5 for a pint of larger and people who went to the con club instead.

In short the crowds are going to have to come first so we need to do all we can to get the club into the city's thoughts. Who else but supporters know who Tom Johnstone or David Fifita are? They should be known throughout the city.

I dont know how much was cut out or what kind of involvement the club had in the programme last night but it was a great opportunity to promote the club. I imagine when life presents the ability to do so again the Mining Museum, the Theatre Royal, the Pie Shop and even Mully's dinner will have an increase in customers/visitors.

I’d have agreed with that until Salford came along.

Rich backer - they were rubbish

He goes and they are more skint than us, less fans than us, on paper worse players and the are runners up in SL 2019 and worthy CCup finalists in 2020 and could have been the winners.

Whatever the formula Salford had it didn’t involve a cash injection, quite the opposite. It would appear that you can get very close with very little if you get things right on and off the field.

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:09 am  

Always an interesting discussion as re. how you generate more interest from a clubs' catchment/population area. I would mention Salford. They have gotten a new stadium, better facilities, have reached 2 finals, all this in the last few years, yet I bet if things were 'normal' as in no covid, their first home game next season they'd be lucky to get 4,000! I don't know how many actual 'fans' they took to Old Trafford, but it must have been between 15 to 20 K possibly? Where were they at their next home game the following season?! I don't remember seeing anything about the stadium being full and thousands locked out! They historically have never attracted large crowds on a regular basis, maybe it's their geographical position, but I doubt it's much 'worse' than Wakefield and the number of clubs within those boundaries etc. It would be nice if in 3 or 4 years when Belle Vue hopefully does have better facilities, and we may have actually gotten to a final!!!! we may see an increase in interest and attendances. I think if we could replicate what Salford have done on the field, we would get bigger crowds than them, they have to be a benchmark for clubs like us, we have had more than decent enough squads for the last 3 or 4 years, and it's about time they actually delivered something that equates to some kind of 'success' sooner rather than later......

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:18 am  

vastman wrote:

I’d have agreed with that until Salford came along.

Rich backer - they were rubbish

He goes and they are more skint than us, less fans than us, on paper worse players and the are runners up in SL 2019 and worthy CCup finalists in 2020 and could have been the winners.

Whatever the formula Salford had it didn’t involve a cash injection, quite the opposite. It would appear that you can get very close with very little if you get things right on and off the field.

Salford are an outlier no doubt, but it says more about the coaching set up which isn't easy to get right. It will be interesting to see how both Huddersfield and Salford go next year to see if the latter dips back and the former move up to genuine challengers.

These examples are few and far between though, especially in a sport as unforgiving as RL.

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:29 am  

Khlav Kalash wrote:

Unless the club gets a rich backer, I'm afraid any success is going to have to come from the support and the revenue that brings. That's why I never understood the complaints about paying £5 for a pint of larger and people who went to the con club instead.

In short the crowds are going to have to come first so we need to do all we can to get the club into the city's thoughts. Who else but supporters know who Tom Johnstone or David Fifita are? They should be known throughout the city.

I dont know how much was cut out or what kind of involvement the club had in the programme last night but it was a great opportunity to promote the club. I imagine when life presents the ability to do so again the Mining Museum, the Theatre Royal, the Pie Shop and even Mully's dinner will have an increase in customers/visitors.

What about Warrington & Hull?? Excellent stadiums, corporate, sponsorship, probably full salary cap spending etc......yet since '98, neither of them have been super league champions!! 2 appearances between them at Old Trafford in 22 years is pathetic for those two. So yes they get the crowds, but as re. having money, it doesn't mean anything if you don't recruit the right coaching, playing & backroom staff.

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:56 am  

For “lapsed” fans - those who’ve been to games in the past and know BV - the lack of success (or at least a consistently competitive team) is probably the key factor in them not going to games any more. But in terms of attracting new fans, the state of the ground is definitely the deciding factor. It’s just not what people expect at an elite sporting venue in the 21st century. I think the ground upgrade is the key. It will provide more income for the club which can then be channeled in to improving player quality and the team being more competitive. Long term but the way forward.

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:40 pm  

Wildmoggy wrote:

What about Warrington & Hull?? Excellent stadiums, corporate, sponsorship, probably full salary cap spending etc......yet since '98, neither of them have been super league champions!! 2 appearances between them at Old Trafford in 22 years is pathetic for those two. So yes they get the crowds, but as re. having money, it doesn't mean anything if you don't recruit the right coaching, playing & backroom staff.

There can only be one winner, with those two there has always been someone better. They have still had success all be it within the cup. The point remains we need the crowds irrespective of success.

Re: Tom Allen show : Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:00 pm  

Khlav Kalash wrote:

Salford are an outlier no doubt, but it says more about the coaching set up which isn't easy to get right. It will be interesting to see how both Huddersfield and Salford go next year to see if the latter dips back and the former move up to genuine challengers.

These examples are few and far between though, especially in a sport as unforgiving as RL.

But it can be done. I have never gotten the Wakey players mentality. Give us a relegation battle and I would bet my house on it that we will play with passion and desire and we will prevail. I also guarantee you that should we be 80 mins from Wembley against a Batley team all playing on one leg we will play like a bunch of strangers who couldn’t give a damn and will conspire to lose.

Give us the nitty gritty survival stuff and we will triumph, give us a sniff of glory and we will quite literally faint. Thus you end up with the curious scanario of teams like Cas and Salford being relegated numerous times whilst we haven’t. Yet on the other hand there fans have experienced genuine high if not the total package whilst all we’ve ever had is a sense of relief.

That’s why we don’t have the attention of the Wakefield public, only nutters like us want to buy into that and even some nutters have their limits.

We desperately need a stadium fit for no doubt but what we need even more is a win, a big win.