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Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:15 pm  

Wakey Til I Die wrote:

Poptart your defence of everything the club does is admiral but misguided. Anyway your answers.

McShane isn't an 80 minute hooker. Siejka isn't a hooker, Wildie is and did nothing wrong to get dropped. But he did.

Mellars played 28 games against SL teams, Walshaw 11.

Annakin wasn't injured the whole of 2012 or half of last season yet he didn't get picked. Walshbrook played virtually every game despite being ineffective in most of them.

Molloy played well for half an hour against catalans and got injured again. He was garbage in the games he played last year. Trout is every bit as good as him.

Wood got signed because he got the chance to prove himself, more than Wildie ever had. If he had been given a shot then you may have just found that he could have cut the mustard.

And i didn't forget Crowther, this was a response to the talent Agar had at his disposal when he arrived that he has failed to utilise.

I don't defend the club, i just don't like it when hearsay type facts are presented and then a major conclusion drawn such as Agar Out. There is plenty wrong with the club there is no doubt.
I should also point out that I'm not having a go at you particularly, it's just your post was clearer than most and easier to comment on.

Mellars didn't play 28 games while Walshaw was ready to play. That is misleading with stats. I haven't seen a situation where Mellars kept Walshaw out of the team. We were in a difficult position with Mellars, in that he was costing money for nothing so he may have played more games simply because we may as well play him at times. Certainly wasn't Agar's choice

I quite like Trout to be honest but in the back row he is always going to have limited opportunity. Molloy has had the same limited opportunity but when I saw him this season, he played well. Many fans say Trout is rubbish. I argue with them too as that is used to explain why Agar is a bad coach too. Can't both be right.

Wildie, again I rate him and was calling for him to be the bench hooker for McShane. Agar has explained that he rates him and is doing it for his own development. He can't do that with Siejka.

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:50 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I'm all for constructive criticism, but it's important to base that criticism in at least something resembling facts.

ok then . FACT - WE WON 7 GAMES ON BOUNCE WITH ELLIS/WOOD COMBO

FACT - AGAR ONLY PLAYED HIM BECAUSE HE HAD TO - THEN GOT RID ASAP

I HAVEN`T READ ANYWHERE ON HERE ANYONE SAYING THAT ELLIS IS/WAS WORLD CLASS . JUST THAT IN THE ROLE HE PLAYED WAS A DAMN SIGHT BETTER THAN AITON .

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:07 pm  

wotsupcas wrote:

ok then . FACT - WE WON 7 GAMES ON BOUNCE WITH ELLIS/WOOD COMBO

FACT - AGAR ONLY PLAYED HIM BECAUSE HE HAD TO - THEN GOT RID ASAP

I HAVEN`T READ ANYWHERE ON HERE ANYONE SAYING THAT ELLIS IS/WAS WORLD CLASS . JUST THAT IN THE ROLE HE PLAYED WAS A DAMN SIGHT BETTER THAN AITON .

I'm sorry but one player doesn't affect how a whole team play. Things clicked for us then and we got lucky with the bulls points deduction. Yes Ellis was quick from dummy half however IMO Aiton was the better player. However I now believe we have a better hooker than Ellis in terms of skills from dummy half but not as good defensively as Aiton - something I'd like to think we're working on.
Agar doesn't pick a team to lose, he picks a team to win. As many of the fans I dont know why Washbrook plays and I would prefer he didn't but Agar must see something in him if he starts him at 13 when he's fit.

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:25 pm  

The Dreadnought wrote:

I'm sorry but one player doesn't affect how a whole team play. we got lucky with the bulls points deduction. Yes Ellis was quick from dummy half however IMO Aiton was the better player. However I now believe we have a better hooker than Ellis in terms of skills from dummy half but not as good defensively as Aiton - something I'd like to think we're working on.
Agar doesn't pick a team to lose, he picks a team to win. As many of the fans I dont know why Washbrook plays and I would prefer he didn't but Agar must see something in him if he starts him at 13 when he's fit.

have to disagree- a good hooker will affect how a team will play more than any other player. not saying ellis was better than aiton overall - but he was a better dummy half , he didn`t turn the ball over 3/4 times a match with a fumble or forward pass. i don`t want to be seen as someone who wants to bag agar at every opportunity - but i maintain that to interfere with the teams structure for the hkr game was CRIMINAL. as for the bulls points deduction - i never mentioned getting in the 8 , just the fact we played terrific rugby and won 7 on bounce. that was after winning 7 of the previous 20 . again for the agar apologists , with players he was FORCED to play

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:37 pm  

wotsupcas wrote:

have to disagree- a good hooker will affect how a team will play more than any other player. not saying ellis was better than aiton overall - but he was a better dummy half , he didn`t turn the ball over 3/4 times a match with a fumble or forward pass. i don`t want to be seen as someone who wants to bag agar at every opportunity - but i maintain that to interfere with the teams structure for the hkr game was CRIMINAL. as for the bulls points deduction - i never mentioned getting in the 8 , just the fact we played terrific rugby and won 7 on bounce. that was after winning 7 of the previous 20 . again for the agar apologists , with players he was FORCED to play

I used to wrong word for the hooker but it won't change the team completely, for me the forwards affect how a team play and then your pivots play on that. Yes I agree HKR was criminal and I was pretty cheesed off about it too. Agar wasn't forced to play Ellis he could of played Wildie instead.

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 6:58 pm  

The Avenger wrote:

As ever, a very good post!

I pose this question though,
What makes a good coach?




If Agar had us winning most of our games, competing through to CC semis and finals and being tipped as possible Grand Fianalists, then that would be great but . . . What if all of that was built on sand and long term was unsustainable possibly leading to financial ruin.

What if Agar had us bumping along at or near the bottom of the League, losing to a Championship team in the CC and never troubling the play offs yet. . . He instigated systems within the club that within the next 5 or 6 years, saw a pathway for our young players through to SL, what if that system produced 5 or 6 players a year who had the genuine potential to become Internationals and World Class.

Thirdly what if Agar had us mid table, capable of the odd surprise and maybe reaching the early stages of the play offs and later stages of the cup without ever really looking likely winners of either. At thee same time he created a youth system that wasn't embarrassing, passed the RFL criteria but almost never produced a player of any great potential.

Which is the better Coach

I'll add, I don't know which (if any) Agar is.

Which is the better coach

I think that there is coaching, managing and club structure involved in this question but understand your thoughts. I think the club as a whole are responsible for young players. Training, environment, education, feel good factor and obviously opportunities. Agar has the largest say on a young player playing as he predominantly picks the team. Looking at our current players I would say If I was Wildie I would be disappointed. However I still feel Wildie has lots of improvement in him and nowhere near Mcshane yet! He needs to not be too disheartened. Coaches often say - Prove me wrong. So i would say Wildie prove Agar wrong. Go and rip it up in the Championship. I always thought Walshaw looked extremely unfit to begin with. However he has shown glimpses of someone who could make a good super league player. Again nowhere near Collis but hopefully he will rip it up in the Championship and also be knocking on Agars door. I liked Annakin in the run of games he had last year. He has been unfortunate that he got injured and his position is covered by one of the strongest areas we have at the club. Trout hasn't let himself down and his main position is up for opinion. I would say second row with the previous point applying. I haven't seen enough of Jowett or Crowther but I'm quietly excited by these.

The whole youth structure is something IMO we need to seriously think about for long term gains. Look at other models that are working well including recruitment, training development and conditioning of young players (which is different to adults) and other important variables. As the club are essentially running on low staff and have had other priorities to stabilise the club I am just grateful for that. However if they want to proceed to the next level and take the club forward this is one of the most important areas to improve. Like most things though it involves money to take forward any structure. MC, CB & KH would love a thriving youth structure. I know many fans question our closeness to Leeds but I would be picking the brains out of Leeds structure if it produced the players the have produced. I know its not that simple but you could do worse than look at their model.

Back to A good coach. Obviously making the right decisions and luck have the biggest influence. A couple of players Agar has picked i wouldn't have picked. However I think what if the players and structure I would have picked produced similar results or worse. What then? It's difficult. Motivation plays a big part in a coaches credentials for me too. Sometimes you need a good rollicking to get you pumping. Maybe MC could do to visit the changing rooms after some he gives out at football. I could list many traits of a good coach but he also needs a good team around him. Is the conditioning good enough? Do the exact messages get passed to the players he passes down? Do the rehab team get the players back in good time? Do the other coaching staff pull their weight? Do the players pull their weight and listen to instructions?

I can't specially say what good or bad traits Agar has as a coach as im not on the training field, changing rooms or gantry when hes passing messages down. How long do you give coaches to succeed is the golden question. I bet Manchester United are glad they decided not to sack Alex Ferguson when he was one game away from the sack all them years ago.

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:29 pm  

The Dreadnought wrote:

Agar doesn't pick a team to lose, he picks a team to win.

Agar picks a team that suits his blinkered views. He keeps his fingers crossed and hopes that it wins. If it loses he'll give it another shot next week/month/season etc. etc. as long as he can keep in his job.

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:03 pm  

I might be wrong in this but didn't agar pick briscoe/lynn combo against fev and they scored mostly down there side. Then picked same two against wigan, if true THAT, is not the actions of a good coach.Also if we were so held back by the late arrival of our overseas players why didn't he prepare or "experiment" with the players we had.Because i for one thought with work permit/visa problems they may never arrive and not to prepare what we had to cover etc was unprofessonal in such an important season for the club.

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Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:34 pm  

TALLYWACKER wrote:

I might be wrong in this but didn't agar pick briscoe/lynn combo against fev and they scored mostly down there side. Then picked same two against wigan, if true THAT, is not the actions of a good coach.Also if we were so held back by the late arrival of our overseas players why didn't he prepare or "experiment" with the players we had.Because i for one thought with work permit/visa problems they may never arrive and not to prepare what we had to cover etc was unprofessonal in such an important season for the club.

Of course he prepared. He played Wildie at scrum half. That was our option until Godinet came. Why is that even an issue.

Re: Agar Out Part 3 : Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:48 pm  

I think it is time to move on because I don't think there are many more aspects of the club that could be laid at the door of our coach. I liked Ellis but if he was better than Aiton then he would be playing in super league not the championship.
I doubt a coach would have much input with regards the youth development at the club, we have others for that who I expect will report to him regarding how individuals are progressing. His responsibility would be the first team squad.
We all have our players who we don't like, I said before I never understood how the likes of Henderson, Golding and on his performances with us Ferres got into the team.