: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:11 pm  

wildycat wrote:

No I do not care, Union is so boring, if Smith wants to go let him, I will not loose any sleep over it, All iam saying is they do not rate their own young players in union, if they need to take ours, I would be pea...d off if I was a young union player coming through the ranks at union, to be dumped for a rugby league player, I say keep expanding the game, young rugby players will soon give union the cold shoulder.

I agree with most of what you say, the problem that union has is their game is not conducive to producing the type of athletes that the rugby league produces. For the very same reason the union game changes superb athletes that leave rugby league for rugby union into mortal men who are a pale shadow of the players they once were.

The irony in your statement is that young junior rugby league players could not be blamed for choosing to go to rugby union when rugby league clubs take the option of overseas players rather than give juniors a chance.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:23 pm  

The Clan wrote:

I agree with most of what you say, the problem that union has is their game is not conducive to producing the type of athletes that the rugby league produces. For the very same reason the union game changes superb athletes that leave rugby league for rugby union into mortal men who are a pale shadow of the players they once were.

The irony in your statement is that young junior rugby league players could not be blamed for choosing to go to rugby union when rugby league clubs take the option of overseas players rather than give juniors a chance.

Strongly disagree with this statement, they simply turn them into athletes conditioned to play Union. From my personaly experiences they Union guys are bigger and stronger but lack the aerobic conditioning in the backs as they game does not need it to the same levels.

I think any young player with an eye on making the most money in Union, should start there career in League as the basic skills to be a good rugby player are taught in League, ie ball skills and defence then if you are deemed suitable and have the correct style and are any good tout yourself around the union ranks for the big money deal.

I really really dislike union but from what i see at the top level it is overtaking league as a game regards most of its aspects including basic skills, at least in England.

If we continue to allow our best juniors to cross over the tide will certainly shift in there favour.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:52 pm  

jonh wrote:

Strongly disagree with this statement, they simply turn them into athletes conditioned to play Union. From my personaly experiences they Union guys are bigger and stronger but lack the aerobic conditioning in the backs as they game does not need it to the same levels.

I think any young player with an eye on making the most money in Union, should start there career in League as the basic skills to be a good rugby player are taught in League, ie ball skills and defence then if you are deemed suitable and have the correct style and are any good tout yourself around the union ranks for the big money deal.

I really really dislike union but from what i see at the top level it is overtaking league as a game regards most of its aspects including basic skills, at least in England.

If we continue to allow our best juniors to cross over the tide will certainly shift in there favour.

I fully understand your point John, however isn't it the fantastic levels of athleticism and the highly honed rugby skills that rugby league demands of its players that attracts the rugby union clubs.

I too am speaking from experience and from the experiences of those close to me who have dealt with both games at the very highest level.

I can tell you that in the areas where the two games share commonality rugby union is a long way behind rugby league, frustratingly so for those whose professional grounding was in rugby league.

This is the case not because they lack the ability to practice those skills on the training field. It is because they are not required to practice those skills under the same intensity during a game.

The end result of this diminished demand is that the very skills, atrubutes and abilities that had attracted the rugby union clubs to rugby league players is inevitably eroded. The longer that player spends in the less demanding environment of rugby union the more those skills which once set him apart are lost.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:26 pm  

Its not the size of the cap that matters, its how you use it !

That list of players that the glory hunter mentions are probably on peanuts. If Wigan gave them the same contracts as Jimmy Riddle and Co then they would make a long term career of League and not even consider Union.

Likewise with Smith, if he was on webbs contract there is no way he would be off to union.

Before we start taking knee jerk reactions with the cap, lets spend the money wisely on English youth and not put it in the pockets of highly paid Aussie has beens.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:49 pm  

Prince Buster wrote:

Its not the size of the cap that matters, its how you use it !

That list of players that the glory hunter mentions are probably on peanuts. If Wigan gave them the same contracts as Jimmy Riddle and Co then they would make a long term career of League and not even consider Union.

Likewise with Smith, if he was on webbs contract there is no way he would be off to union.

Before we start taking knee jerk reactions with the cap, lets spend the money wisely on English youth and not put it in the pockets of highly paid Aussie has beens.

Exactly on all 3 counts.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:52 pm  

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:32 pm  

My goodness there is some tosh on here.

Let's scrap our rules and our systems because Union might just nick a few players from us???

Everyone, and I mean everyone, can see that there has been a massive increase in the Junior talent coming through in the game - not just in one club, but in many.

If someone wants to tweak the rules again to allow more money to go into Junior development, then that could be supported, but in the current economic climate, the salary cap for the first team should stay exactly as it is - and if lose a few, so be it.

Oh, and players like Owen Farrell, they have made their choices and that's up to them, but I'd be disappointed if I thought that Andy hadn't at least tried to persuede him to join a league club.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:18 pm  

jonh wrote:

How can a player that has just been named the best player in the World suddenly become past it?! You really could not make it up!

Regards Ashton attacking potential was superb his try to game ratio clearly shows this, the fact he then went to a Union club and broke all the scoring records in that division shows this.

I just wish for 1 second you could see all the hard work and investment that goes into players at some clubs, and realise the frustration of the issue, still what you don't know will not hurt you, keep claiming that the Golden Boot winner was past it, just like Jason Robinson I suppose. If you are ever able to produce a star that is suited to rugby union i am sure your tune will change, in fact i can name 2 lads now in the Scholarship who have already been courted by union, 1 especially is earmarked for a top career in League, still if you do not know about it, it does not matter and all is well.

Some on here have the nerve to call Cas insullar.

I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong about Farrell, come on tell me about the HUGE success he's been since his move to union, go on please, after all he did get the vote.

Don't give me that guff about players and not knowing Jonh, i have been around far too long and coached far too many players to be told by YOU.

In fact without people like me, you would struggle to have anything to preach about, of course we don't put any work in

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:22 pm  

TRB wrote:

I still don't think it's time for change - yet, but I do appreciate that it has to change / increase at some point, for now though we have to hold firm for the wider benefit - and yes, that does mean allowing the smaller clubs time to grow their business plans to be able to live at the top. This will then become key when the next round of licences are granted.

I think it unfair to use the England WC performances to back up your argument though - we all know England were crap, and we all know we could & should have done a lot better - at least performance wise.

I don't think that we lack ambition - far from it - I think under Richard Lewis we have become self-confident about our sport and, although not quite as much as I would like, we have become firm to our ideals and taken much clearer long term decisions - much unlike RL in the past!

I was not looking at it from a performance point of view simply a basic skills point of view inability to pass, accuratley, catch etc etc.

Its the corner stone skills of our game that we pride ourselves on as a code and we are now failing to do it with our best players in an International environment.

Unions success as a code is based upon a strong International game, the longer we fail in this and even worse alow young international players to leave our code and shrug our shoulders saying well its not my team the more our code will suffer.

There is no coincidence many Aussies were not too upset by the Kiwi win at the World Cup as they saw the bigger picture its a shame many in the UK cannot see that.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:24 pm  

jonh wrote:

I was not looking at it from a performance point of view simply a basic skills point of view inability to pass, accuratley, catch etc etc.
Its the corner stone skills of our game that we pride ourselves on as a code and we are now failing to do it with our best players in an International environment.

Unions success as a code is based upon a strong International game, the longer we fail in this and even worse alow young international players to leave our code and shrug our shoulders saying well its not my team the more our code will suffer.

There is no coincidence many Aussies were not too upset by the Kiwi win at the World Cup as they saw the bigger picture its a shame many in the UK cannot see that.

Is that not measured by performance. They can all do better - we know that is true!