Re: Corona Virus : Fri Apr 17, 2020 3:46 pm  

Fishermanscap wrote:

I've no doubt. However, that's not the point. I can guarantee you that you will find 20 versions of the said story as with many others regarding Coronavirus, all with a slant that suits their particular agenda, That's fine in the cut and thrust of real life. It will also be ok once all this is over. There is a time and a place and now isn't it.

The conceit seems to be amongst the press and a lot of people, in general, is that they are keeping the Government on its toes and holding it to account a sort of crusading for the public. This IMHO it shows arrogance or a sense of attention-seeking that I don't like and I feel to be unhelpful and dishonest.

I don't say this to defend Ministers of Civil Servants, I say it because virtually nobody is an expert on this subject and even those who have until now only ever dealt in hypotheticals. Yet now led by the tiresome Piers Morgan they are all expert and have all the answers and expect a huge government apparatus to be able to adjust to their pet theories instantly.

It's overused but now is the time for solidarity and that include the FACT that we have to go with those in charge under the assumption that they are doing their best There must be a sound reason why people are still entering the country, it may not be a reason you approve of but that's why we have governments, people who are willing to make decisions. Ever been to a meeting where the chair asks the audience their opinion? I have and often there is a wall of silence. People chelp a lot but when given the chance they rarely contribute.

There is something unpleasant about most politicians, however, as yet I'm not aware of an alternative.

We could run the country X-Factor style but I have seen the way the general public seem to vote I don't think that's a great idea.

So IMO and it's only my opinion in extraordinary times like this the press needs to be reigned in and stories need to be stringently checked, not censored but checked for accuracy. That's not reducing free speech, it's reducing false information by having to justify what's been printed. This is what happened in WW2 and our democracy seemed to survive.

As for the story, it seems true, the context however is not, because I still don't know the reason why.

If anyone was harbouring any lingering doubts that FC is Vastman - this should put paid to it; because Vasty, for all his faults, would never preach this kind of lickspittle, cap-doffing servility to a Govt and MSM who decide what is acceptable, and spoon-feed it to us by a process of organised dishonesty, patronage and stenography, all based on the interests of their non-dom billionaire owners.

Suffice it to say, I couldn't disagree more; question everything, get your news from many sources and never, ever believe anything you read or hear in any mainstream media without asking yourself who is saying it, why they're saying it and what vested interests are they serving.

This is a non-party political point btw - before anyone starts bleating.

Re: Corona Virus : Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:13 pm  

RickK wrote:

A number of points raised but sadly not well made and lacking in facts that could support your outlook. Possibly following one theme rather than weaving several together would get your point across.

Whereas this reply is just flowing with explanation and facts. What is it that you disagree with, Rick, in terms of fact or point? Although your reply is a great example of the level of discussion we now have amongst the general public in this country.

Re: Corona Virus : Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:00 pm  

Itsva total shambles . It seems to me you can work and travel on public transport in the thousands unless your a cafe restraunts pub or nightclub.
Its crazy when you look at the coverage on tv of people traveling on the underground.
When the figures finaly get released it will be onteresting to see how many fatalities actually continued to work on non fromt line positions.
People are traveling every day from London to Aylesbury for the HS2 project and picking work colleagues up on the way.
ITS NOT A LOCK DOWN OR ANYTHING LIKE IT.

Re: Corona Virus : Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:30 pm  

Adam_Harrison9 wrote:

They're all part of the same group think and attended the same private schools and have been filtered through the same system. They all have the same ideological prejudices and all work within the same narrow parameters of what is considered acceptable opinion. There's not much difference between newspapers, radio or tv news affairs besides the colour of the suit they are wearing. We live under a system of huge propaganda and coercion. Most people will never know that they don't know what is going on.

With regards to the coronavirus it is obvious that there are mistakes (if you want to call them mistakes - some might say that it's a deliberate choice) being made left, right and centre and that is because it isn't beneficial in the short term for capitalists to create long term solutions to a pandemic when they are interested in paying their stockholders huge profits. After the SARS epidemic in 2003 (which was a coronavirus) there has been an age of time and lots of research into animal coronaviruses and of course the scientific community has known of the dangers this posed to human life and society. Understanding this isn't enough. Of course scientists UNDERSTOOD this could happen - so who is to blame here? The scientists? Of course not. Drug companies had the opportunity to do something - of course they didn't as this does not follow capitalist logic i.e. it's not their problem. Somebody's got to pay for it and why should they? So the alternative is the government. Well, the government is there to be the solution when the private sector is in trouble - that's well understood - but if it's just when the public needs something then the why should the government get involved?

Let's take the Trump as an example just for starters. USAID had a program detecting viruses that exist in animal populations that are getting closer to contact with humans because of habitat destruction and global warming. They were identifying thousands of potential viruses and working in China as well as in the US. Trump disbanded the project in October 2019. It's not in their interest to fund programmes that benefit the public if it comes at significant cost. Of course in terms of looking to the future and building our future our governments are vastly subidising the fossil fuel indistries despite them driving us to ecological catastrophe because it's well understood that short-term shareholder's profits are by far the short term priority as opposed to long term health.

Another examole being the production of ventilators. The system we live under means there isn't a surplus of ventilators in case of a catastrophe of course the govenrment could produce more ventilators to make sure that there are enough in the event of a pamdemic but again, this is not in the financial interest of businesses. There was an example in the Obama administration where after the Ebola pandemic the US government contracted a company to produce high quality low-cost ventilators however this company was bought out by another company who was competing with their own brand of ventilators and they tore up the contract with the government on the basis that it wasn't profitable enough.

The question is: what will the public do about it? The answer: not a lot if they think watching the BBC news at 6 will actually provide them with any knowledge of what is actually happening in the world.

If people think the government have done a good job then i'd suggest they're not really aware of what is happening. Which isn't necessarily their fault but they need to do research outside of listening to BBC radio 2 or the guardian (by all means read those things as well - I'm not saying they're compeltely useless because they're not). There has long been things governments could do to help the human population in the event of a pandemic - it's just not in their interest to do so in the short term.

It's not necessarily even about party politics. It's about the overall economic structure of our societies and where those at the tops priorities lie.

The best, and most well thought out and presented post I've read on this Forum in a long, long time. Well said Adam

Re: Corona Virus : Fri Apr 17, 2020 8:27 pm  

Adam_Harrison9 wrote:

They're all part of the same group think and attended the same private schools and have been filtered through the same system. They all have the same ideological prejudices and all work within the same narrow parameters of what is considered acceptable opinion. There's not much difference between newspapers, radio or tv news affairs besides the colour of the suit they are wearing. We live under a system of huge propaganda and coercion. Most people will never know that they don't know what is going on.

With regards to the coronavirus it is obvious that there are mistakes (if you want to call them mistakes - some might say that it's a deliberate choice) being made left, right and centre and that is because it isn't beneficial in the short term for capitalists to create long term solutions to a pandemic when they are interested in paying their stockholders huge profits. After the SARS epidemic in 2003 (which was a coronavirus) there has been an age of time and lots of research into animal coronaviruses and of course the scientific community has known of the dangers this posed to human life and society. Understanding this isn't enough. Of course scientists UNDERSTOOD this could happen - so who is to blame here? The scientists? Of course not. Drug companies had the opportunity to do something - of course they didn't as this does not follow capitalist logic i.e. it's not their problem. Somebody's got to pay for it and why should they? So the alternative is the government. Well, the government is there to be the solution when the private sector is in trouble - that's well understood - but if it's just when the public needs something then the why should the government get involved?

Let's take the Trump as an example just for starters. USAID had a program detecting viruses that exist in animal populations that are getting closer to contact with humans because of habitat destruction and global warming. They were identifying thousands of potential viruses and working in China as well as in the US. Trump disbanded the project in October 2019. It's not in their interest to fund programmes that benefit the public if it comes at significant cost. Of course in terms of looking to the future and building our future our governments are vastly subidising the fossil fuel indistries despite them driving us to ecological catastrophe because it's well understood that short-term shareholder's profits are by far the short term priority as opposed to long term health.

Another examole being the production of ventilators. The system we live under means there isn't a surplus of ventilators in case of a catastrophe of course the govenrment could produce more ventilators to make sure that there are enough in the event of a pamdemic but again, this is not in the financial interest of businesses. There was an example in the Obama administration where after the Ebola pandemic the US government contracted a company to produce high quality low-cost ventilators however this company was bought out by another company who was competing with their own brand of ventilators and they tore up the contract with the government on the basis that it wasn't profitable enough.

The question is: what will the public do about it? The answer: not a lot if they think watching the BBC news at 6 will actually provide them with any knowledge of what is actually happening in the world.

If people think the government have done a good job then i'd suggest they're not really aware of what is happening. Which isn't necessarily their fault but they need to do research outside of listening to BBC radio 2 or the guardian (by all means read those things as well - I'm not saying they're compeltely useless because they're not). There has long been things governments could do to help the human population in the event of a pandemic - it's just not in their interest to do so in the short term.

It's not necessarily even about party politics. It's about the overall economic structure of our societies and where those at the tops priorities lie.

Great post Adam.
The similarity between SARS and Corona Virus is unfortunately so close.
SARS was "controlled" in a sense, whereas Corona has not been for whatever reason and I don't want to get into politics as I don't do politics.
I suppose we could look at the the animal-human contamination, which is there.
However, I disagree re Ventilators.
I work for a medical company and I can state as a fact, they are produced as per demand. There has never been a "surplus" of them.
For example, if Barnsley Hospital ITU wanted x10, chances are they would be on the shelf ready.
However, if they wanted x25 that may be a slight issue - and I have seen this scenario in January for another hospital who had the money and ordered them.
Cheers

Re: Corona Virus : Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:01 pm  

BarnsleyGull wrote:

Great post Adam.
The similarity between SARS and Corona Virus is unfortunately so close.
SARS was "controlled" in a sense, whereas Corona has not been for whatever reason and I don't want to get into politics as I don't do politics.
I suppose we could look at the the animal-human contamination, which is there.
However, I disagree re Ventilators.
I work for a medical company and I can state as a fact, they are produced as per demand. There has never been a "surplus" of them.
For example, if Barnsley Hospital ITU wanted x10, chances are they would be on the shelf ready.
However, if they wanted x25 that may be a slight issue - and I have seen this scenario in January for another hospital who had the money and ordered them.
Cheers

That was exactly my point. You're right that there isn't a surplus of them - that's because it isn't profitable to have a surplus of them which is why when there is an emergency we are not equipped. The system is totally dictated to by market priniples in the short term which means there is no long term planning for a catastrophe. Profit is put before the population.

Re: Corona Virus : Sat Apr 18, 2020 6:01 am  

Adam_Harrison9 wrote:

Whereas this reply is just flowing with explanation and facts. What is it that you disagree with, Rick, in terms of fact or point? Although your reply is a great example of the level of discussion we now have amongst the general public in this country.

I have not cited anything that needs backing up. I have commented on your post, as an example of what I was referring to perhaps the assertion regarding ventilators and the claimed takeover and cancelling of a contract can you provide details to support that, perhaps the names of the two companies involved.

Re: Corona Virus : Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:14 am  

RickK wrote: I have not cited anything that needs backing up. I have commented on your post, as an example of what I was referring to perhaps the assertion regarding ventilators and the claimed takeover and cancelling of a contract can you provide details to support that, perhaps the names of the two companies involved. https://globalcompetitionreview.com/art ... n%E2%80%9D I'd leave footnotes for every assertion I make but I think you'd acknowledge it would be quite time consuming. Your initial post didn't outline what you just said. If all you wanted was the footnote, I would have given you it in my response. You can have the other as well https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019 ... eparedness or here's the new york times https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/heal ... ruses.html The interesting thing here is that A) i wonder if other assertions would be asked to be backed up in such a way (they should always be backed up I wouldn't dispute that) if I was just repeating conventional thought and B) it's interesting that most people wouldn't know about these things if some idiot with too much time on his hands had not posted them. A great example of how our media are failing the population. As we all know now, Trump has gone on to cut the funding of the WHO at a time of global pandemic. The only words to describe it are sheer lunacy.

RickK wrote: I have not cited anything that needs backing up. I have commented on your post, as an example of what I was referring to perhaps the assertion regarding ventilators and the claimed takeover and cancelling of a contract can you provide details to support that, perhaps the names of the two companies involved. https://globalcompetitionreview.com/art ... n%E2%80%9D I'd leave footnotes for every assertion I make but I think you'd acknowledge it would be quite time consuming. Your initial post didn't outline what you just said. If all you wanted was the footnote, I would have given you it in my response. You can have the other as well https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019 ... eparedness or here's the new york times https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/heal ... ruses.html The interesting thing here is that A) i wonder if other assertions would be asked to be backed up in such a way (they should always be backed up I wouldn't dispute that) if I was just repeating conventional thought and B) it's interesting that most people wouldn't know about these things if some idiot with too much time on his hands had not posted them. A great example of how our media are failing the population. As we all know now, Trump has gone on to cut the funding of the WHO at a time of global pandemic. The only words to describe it are sheer lunacy.

Re: Corona Virus : Sat Apr 18, 2020 11:58 am  

Adam_Harrison9 wrote:

That was exactly my point. You're right that there isn't a surplus of them - that's because it isn't profitable to have a surplus of them which is why when there is an emergency we are not equipped. The system is totally dictated to by market priniples in the short term which means there is no long term planning for a catastrophe. Profit is put before the population.

Its not down profit - its down to demand.
There would be no point in a company having 50 vents on the shelf as the money tied into that - around £1m - may not be recouped through sales.
A totally understandable business outlook.

Re: Corona Virus : Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:25 pm  

BarnsleyGull wrote:

Its not down profit - its down to demand.
There would be no point in a company having 50 vents on the shelf as the money tied into that - around £1m - may not be recouped through sales.
A totally understandable business outlook.

I worked for a well known confectionery firm in Cas, I can’t remember the exact reasoning but every twelve months we had a purge of the engineering stores and anything mechanical that hadn’t been used in the last 12 months was immediately scrapped, I’m not sure if it wasn’t a tax thing, the powers that be said it was more expensive to store the items than buy new items, something barmy like that.