Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:32 am  

imwakefieldtillidie wrote:

All I’m saying is that if you watch them back and keep an eye on his play the ball you’ll see what I mean. Very rarely does he play it with his foot. And I don’t care what other props do, I’m a Wakefield fan, they can do as they please.

I don’t expect you to come back and admit you were wrong, I know that won’t happen, but watch him closely and you’ll see.

Even for you that's a ludicrous argument. The issue isn't what Fifita did but how it differed from everyone else.

Basically in your world it's one rule for Dave and one for everyone else. Seems very bizarre to me that a Trinity fan would sanction his own player being treated differently and more harshly than any other.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite you're face! Me, I'd rather back my player to be treated fairly by a ref who clearly holds a grudge against him.

Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:25 am  

vastman wrote:

Even for you that's a ludicrous argument. The issue isn't what Fifita did but how it differed from everyone else.

Basically in your world it's one rule for Dave and one for everyone else. Seems very bizarre to me that a Trinity fan would sanction his own player being treated differently and more harshly than any other.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite you're face! Me, I'd rather back my player to be treated fairly by a ref who clearly holds a grudge against him.

No, I know what the rules are and my preference is that our players stuck to them and if other want to risk playing outside them, that's their choice. Our other prop forwards don't have an issue with. And if you I go back to my original point, I also said that there was no need for a quick play the ball. We had field position and we're six in front with just a few minutes left. Even Chris Chester in his post match interview said it was a silly penalty for him to give away. Do you think he was wrong as well?

Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:35 am  

Shifty Cat wrote:

I've watched just about every game this season, our own and those on SKY and a ton last season and it seems that in our game that the majority of players don't play the ball correctly (i'd say something like 8 out of every 10 as a guesstimate), as in they place the ball on the floor and use their foot to roll it back.

It seems to me there are 2 ways that most players use nowadays and that's the roll it between their legs technique, or lift their leg up and roll it underneath it without the ball touching the foot.

I'd have thought if the refs really thought it was a real problem, they'd have spoken to the teams at the start of the year and then punish every player who doesn't do it the proper way but I suppose they'd be about 50 penalties a match for quite a while. it's something that's gradually crept more and more into the game the past decade or so.

Personally though, I don't have much of a problem with it, as long as the player has gained his feet and plays it post to post.

The one thing that does get on my nerves, that players have taken advantage of because refs have not been punishing it as much as they did say 5 seasons ago, is the second markers at the PTB not standing square. Second markers seem to think as long as they have hold of the shirt of the marker they can stand where they want, which is an obvious penalty but refs just hardly penalise it, just one or two if your lucky/unlucky a match. Compared to the PTB issue, imo the second marker not standing in line is far more benefitial for the defendig side.

I think the rules are that they have to show they’ve made an effort to play the with their foot, it doesn’t actually have to make contact with it. So a player who lifts their foot up and motions would be fine, but some who just rolls it between their legs with no real attempt would be penalised. That’s roughly what Stuart Cummins said. Personally I’d penalise everyone who doesn’t play it correctly, and with in a couple of weeks I reckon the problem would be solved. Kids are taught it from a young age, it’s nothing new.

Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:01 am  

imwakefieldtillidie wrote:

I think the rules are that they have to show they’ve made an effort to play the with their foot, it doesn’t actually have to make contact with it.

That seems to be the new 'interpretation' of the rule, I suspect to allow what seems to be the holy grail of a quick ptb - because the actual rule says:

"When the ball touches the ground it must be heeled (i.e. backwards) by the tackled player."

It seems that that particular rule has been interpreted out of existence now, since the modern approach is to make the game as quick as possible - such that I'd say 80% of ptb's in any given game are technically illegal; some players are more obvious than others, and I think you're right that Fifita's MO seems to be to exploit the number of people it takes to bring him down, by playing the ball as quickly as possible - which does sometimes look dodgy; he's far from the worst or the only offender though; the much vaunted 'Lockers' for example, has never played the ball correctly in his life, nor did Jamie Peacock, so I maintain that the penalty was incongruous and harsh.

On balance, I'm not sure I'd want rigid enforcement of the rule now - but I do think that the epidemic of wrestling and laying on is a symptom of the lax enforcement of a proper ptb; it's a coaches way of responding to a problem that the referees have allowed to develop. So maybe solving one would at least partially solve the other?

Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:08 am  

bren2k wrote:

That seems to be the new 'interpretation' of the rule, I suspect to allow what seems to be the holy grail of a quick ptb - because the actual rule says:

"When the ball touches the ground it must be heeled (i.e. backwards) by the tackled player."

It seems that that particular rule has been interpreted out of existence now, since the modern approach is to make the game as quick as possible - such that I'd say 80% of ptb's in any given game are technically illegal; some players are more obvious than others, and I think you're right that Fifita's MO seems to be to exploit the number of people it takes to bring him down, by playing the ball as quickly as possible - which does sometimes look dodgy; he's far from the worst or the only offender though; the much vaunted 'Lockers' for example, has never played the ball correctly in his life, nor did Jamie Peacock, so I maintain that the penalty was incongruous and harsh.

On balance, I'm not sure I'd want rigid enforcement of the rule now - but I do think that the epidemic of wrestling and laying on is a symptom of the lax enforcement of a proper ptb; it's a coaches way of responding to a problem that the referees have allowed to develop. So maybe solving one would at least partially solve the other?

That's a fair point. But I do think with any rule, if it was enforced firmly then most sides would quit doing it after a couple of weeks when the penalties mount up. It's a choice they make.

Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:33 pm  

imwakefieldtillidie wrote:

That's a fair point. But I do think with any rule, if it was enforced firmly then most sides would quit doing it after a couple of weeks when the penalties mount up. It's a choice they make.

That I do agree with; I've been banging on about the ruck for years now, and I still maintain that despite the egregious tactics employed by coaches and players now seeming to be accepted as part of the game, if the RFL decided to deal with it and spent the first few rounds of a new season penalising the shizzle out of anyone who infringed, it would stop quickly - because no coach is daft enough to allow his team to be penalised out of a game. But because they're not daft - they will continue to do it so long as they're getting away with it. I defy anyone to find a SL team that doesn't now deliver wrestle training - I've even seen it offered to junior teams - including use of levers and pain compliance!

I guess my point about this specific issue is that so long as the ball is played backwards from a standing position, and there is an attempt to strike it with the foot, I'm relatively sanguine about whether it actually does or not; and given all the other impediments to a quick ptb, particularly wrestling, I wouldn't want to introduce (or re-introduce) another one.

What I would like to see dealt with however, is stepping off the mark, which is now endemic in the game - and is another reaction to wrestling and slowing down the ptb.

Re: Good ref : Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:17 pm  

bren2k wrote:

What I would like to see dealt with however, is stepping off the mark, which is now endemic in the game - and is another reaction to wrestling and slowing down the ptb.

That easy to deal with. Any player who steps off the mark immediately makes un-square markers square, which would put them usually right on top of the dummy half. A shout from the ref keeps the game moving and penalises the stepper.

Justin Carney is seemingly incapable of playing the ball without stepping to one side.

Re: Good ref : Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:10 am  

bren2k wrote:

What I would like to see dealt with however, is stepping off the mark, which is now endemic in the game - and is another reaction to wrestling and slowing down the ptb.

Yep, that's the other one that gets on my nerves that's crept into the game the last few years, along with the second marker holding onto the back of his teammates' shirt but standing a meter or so to the left or right of the actual PTB.

Re: Good ref : Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:55 am  

dboy wrote:

And there's the rub. Anything he did well, possibly 99% of his performance, was utterly undermined by one inexplicable, yet potentially game changing moment of madness.

How he could penalise Fifita for the PTB, when you look at every other PTB from the game, is beyond comprehension. Salford scored at least one try from a PTB that was just rolled and thus catching the defense dead in the water.

Refs can make mistakes, I get that. But that PTB decision is not an area where a top of the game ref should be making such an error.

Yes I agree. Hicks remains the worse for me he literally gifted leeds the game Thursday last week. His attitude stinks of big headedness

Re: Good ref : Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:13 am  

Slugger McBatt wrote:

That easy to deal with. Any player who steps off the mark immediately makes un-square markers square, which would put them usually right on top of the dummy half. A shout from the ref keeps the game moving and penalises the stepper.

They're all easy to deal with - but there seems to be no appetite to do anything that could be perceived as slowing the game down.