Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:10 am  

vastman wrote:

Not at all, glad you enjoyed yourself but it makes no difference.

I could go anywhere in the U.K. and find you hundreds of people enthusiastic for RL. What I couldn’t find you would be the thousands required to turn that into a real ground swell of support, the kind needed for a pro team. That’s the problem here, people like you with the best of intentions mistake a small number of enthusiastic followers of the game as a sign of its viability, they simply aren’t.

What really annoys me is that you people make huge leaps and claim it’s the only way forward if we are to survive and it’s utter rubbish. Was it Jack Gibson who said that for a team to prosper the back office needs to be right first! Well we are not even close, even if there was the slightest chance of Canada working the RFL simply doesn’t have the capability to do it.

You are day dreaming, until the domestic game is healthy we need to shelve all but the most modest of expansion goals. To turn the game around just in its stronghold is a ten year job in my book. Stop side tracking the game with your fantasies, we have far more important things to do,like stopping the amateur game dying on its feet for Christ sake.

Ottawa Beavers have better training facilities than Wakefield Trinity.

They have access to 2 grounds one which they own and one which they rent.

The one they rent is at the local University and whilst not SL standard is would certainly be superior to some lower division clubs.

They have a thriving youth set up.

The ground they own pretty much funds the club because of the events that they are able to hold there.

There is a thriving rugby community in Quebec which has been established since the 1950’s.

Until the Wolfpack came along that was exclusively Union, but now it is also becoming League and there is 0 League/union bias over there.

Toronto failing is sad in my opinion because it was a fantastic opportunity, however the right call because the ownership and model was wrong.

Hopefully Ottawa Aces learn from that, I know they are working closely with Ottawa Beavers and that existing support in the region.

You would argue black is white against one of my posts, it’s what you do. It’s fair enough but you don’t know what you are talking about on this one and you are wrong.

There are around 13000 juniors playing rugby in Quebec Region. It’s not a bad start especially when you consider Trinity are surviving on gates of around 5000/match (roughly) and a core from that of probably about 4000 home fans.

You need to cool your jets a little and think before you post sometimes, just like on the Bowes thread, as your desire to give it the big I am clearly clouds your judgement, and makes you look more than a bit daft when you don’t know the facts surrounding your own club because you want to jump on someone, and then when you can look a bit silly you change the goal posts rather than just put your hand up and say you were wrong.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:13 am  

homme vaste wrote:

Joe Mellor would be a good pick up for me, I would also look at Matty Russell for the wing if we are looking at replacing BJB in the next couple of years.

Think BJB will be around a while yet but then I would put Kaye and Senior in front of Russel and even Kershaw may progress sufficiently. Russel has gone backwards since his Wembley appearance for Wire many moons ago.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 am  

Totally in favour of expansion, but in the right way, and not at the potential expense of other clubs. Globally, with someone like TW it could give the sport a global shot in the arm it needs.

I read an article a while ago, and the interest in the sport is growing throughout the Americas, from North to South. With the money pumped into the sport over there, wouldn't it be better off having an American Super League, and maybe the same on European clubs, including French.

If it happened and took off, could have a 4 way World Club Challenge, whilst continuing to spread the sport nationally, and gradually adding clubs, one at a time, with a specialist designated team who would work in the local area, focussing on marketing, finance and coaching, and not moving away from that club until it is stable and found its feet.

I think in the past, the RFL have looked at an area, put a club out there, and just left it to die without support they need

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:06 am  

jonh wrote:

Ottawa Beavers have better training facilities than Wakefield Trinity.

They have access to 2 grounds one which they own and one which they rent.

The one they rent is at the local University and whilst not SL standard is would certainly be superior to some lower division clubs.

They have a thriving youth set up.

The ground they own pretty much funds the club because of the events that they are able to hold there.

There is a thriving rugby community in Quebec which has been established since the 1950’s.

Until the Wolfpack came along that was exclusively Union, but now it is also becoming League and there is 0 League/union bias over there.

Toronto failing is sad in my opinion because it was a fantastic opportunity, however the right call because the ownership and model was wrong.

Hopefully Ottawa Aces learn from that, I know they are working closely with Ottawa Beavers and that existing support in the region.

You would argue black is white against one of my posts, it’s what you do. It’s fair enough but you don’t know what you are talking about on this one and you are wrong.

There are around 13000 juniors playing rugby in Quebec Region. It’s not a bad start especially when you consider Trinity are surviving on gates of around 5000/match (roughly) and a core from that of probably about 4000 home fans.

You need to cool your jets a little and think before you post sometimes, just like on the Bowes thread, as your desire to give it the big I am clearly clouds your judgement, and makes you look more than a bit daft when you don’t know the facts surrounding your own club because you want to jump on someone, and then when you can look a bit silly you change the goal posts rather than just put your hand up and say you were wrong.

Those stats mean nothing, no paying customers no game in my opinion.

You made an interesting point. Canada has no summer sport, True, so why hasn't American Baseball filled that gap? A far richer sport, far closer, far more Canadian followers than RL will ever have. If it's not viable for them how on earth will it work for us. To me, it's a non-starter and always was. Sorry to burst your bubble, you're clearly sincere and well informed but in the case of RL in Canada you don't need that, a bog standard businessman could spot that its a loser.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:09 am  

Eastern Wildcat wrote:

Totally in favour of expansion, but in the right way, and not at the potential expense of other clubs. Globally, with someone like TW it could give the sport a global shot in the arm it needs.

I read an article a while ago, and the interest in the sport is growing throughout the Americas, from North to South. With the money pumped into the sport over there, wouldn't it be better off having an American Super League, and maybe the same on European clubs, including French.

If it happened and took off, could have a 4 way World Club Challenge, whilst continuing to spread the sport nationally, and gradually adding clubs, one at a time, with a specialist designated team who would work in the local area, focussing on marketing, finance and coaching, and not moving away from that club until it is stable and found its feet.

I think in the past, the RFL have looked at an area, put a club out there, and just left it to die without support they need

I think an established professional league in North America would be the dream, but ultimately it will take a long term (decades) plan.

Using Catalans as a model we are starting to see the benefit of their existence on the quality of the tier 2 French game. That process has taken 20 years.

The profile of the game in France is on the rise with occasions like the game at the Nou Camp only helping to boost it further.

There needs initially to be something to get behind though. In an ideal world I’d like to see a structure where by we have a Canadian team playing at an elite level and in turn being the figure head to drive a tier 2 domestic competition, with a view to them joining that comp once it develops but again that would take decades not years.

As much as I have loved going to Catalans I’d love to think in 20 years time they will be playing in a strong French domestic sustainable professional league not SL. That will probably never happen though but I think it is the model the Canadians should be looking at, but it needs a team playing in an elite comp to build that interest in my opinion.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:10 am  

In the press this morning that the new owner wouldn't pay off all the debts and would only accept a 2 point deduction.

I can't believe some clubs voted for that.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:14 am  

jonh wrote:

Ottawa Beavers have better training facilities than Wakefield Trinity.

They have access to 2 grounds one which they own and one which they rent.

The one they rent is at the local University and whilst not SL standard is would certainly be superior to some lower division clubs.

They have a thriving youth set up.

The ground they own pretty much funds the club because of the events that they are able to hold there.

There is a thriving rugby community in Quebec which has been established since the 1950’s.

Until the Wolfpack came along that was exclusively Union, but now it is also becoming League and there is 0 League/union bias over there.

Toronto failing is sad in my opinion because it was a fantastic opportunity, however the right call because the ownership and model was wrong.

Hopefully Ottawa Aces learn from that, I know they are working closely with Ottawa Beavers and that existing support in the region.

You would argue black is white against one of my posts, it’s what you do. It’s fair enough but you don’t know what you are talking about on this one and you are wrong.

There are around 13000 juniors playing rugby in Quebec Region. It’s not a bad start especially when you consider Trinity are surviving on gates of around 5000/match (roughly) and a core from that of probably about 4000 home fans.

You need to cool your jets a little and think before you post sometimes, just like on the Bowes thread, as your desire to give it the big I am clearly clouds your judgement, and makes you look more than a bit daft when you don’t know the facts surrounding your own club because you want to jump on someone, and then when you can look a bit silly you change the goal posts rather than just put your hand up and say you were wrong.

Why the dummy spit? I don’t agree with you nothing more. I think I’m right you clearly assume your right, says a lot. As for moving goal post, don’t be so prissy, if there is one thing you can’t accuse me of is that, get real. I’m anti expansionist when I think it’s unviable and Canada has always been that to me and sadly I’ve been proved right.

It’s the latter that bothers you if you’re honest, it’s not me whose judgement is clouded and it’s not me who can’t admit I’m wrong.

Very typical of the modern world, you can believe what you want so long as it’s what I believe, if you don’t I’ll call you a fool, great just great.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:33 am  

vastman wrote:

Why the dummy spit? I don’t agree with you nothing more. I think I’m right you clearly assume your right, says a lot. As for moving goal post, don’t be so prissy, if there is one thing you can’t accuse me of is that, get real. I’m anti expansionist when I think it’s unviable and Canada has always been that to me and sadly I’ve been proved right.

It’s the latter that bothers you if you’re honest, it’s not me whose judgement is clouded and it’s not me who can’t admit I’m wrong.

Very typical of the modern world, you can believe what you want so long as it’s what I believe, if you don’t I’ll call you a fool, great just great.

No dummy spit at all I’m just providing some facts to back up my point that there is a market there and if it is done right I believe it could be a great success.

Catalans failed (PSG) and had to be reborn and what a success that has now become?

Basically a similar model to Toronto apart from one thing..a credible owner.

Melbourne Storm in Australia another example of an expansion success...whilst Perth and the Hunter Mariners died.

If you have a gap in the market and you get the administration right then you stand a very good chance of success.

The 2 guys at Toronto are nothing more than con men and that along with the global pandemic has put an end to it.

Ottawa now has a great opportunity to look at those mistakes use Toronto as a lessons learned model and get it right.

There is a captive rugby market in Canada, you claim there isn’t, you are wrong, what needs to happen now is put in place a viable business plan, not a boom to bust model, and build slowly and taking advantage of the infrastructure that is in place already.

Expansion isn’t a 2-3 year thing. It takes decades.

One thing is for sure for 125 years we have been trying to get it right in the heartlands and look where we are? A sport that constantly struggles.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:41 am  

Fishermanscap wrote:

Those stats mean nothing, no paying customers no game in my opinion.

You made an interesting point. Canada has no summer sport, True, so why hasn't American Baseball filled that gap? A far richer sport, far closer, far more Canadian followers than RL will ever have. If it's not viable for them how on earth will it work for us. To me, it's a non-starter and always was. Sorry to burst your bubble, you're clearly sincere and well informed but in the case of RL in Canada you don't need that, a bog standard businessman could spot that its a loser.

Baseball is played over there.
Toronto Bluejays are pretty big and have decent profile in the city.
Their stadium is a huge modern thing.
It's not a sport that I follow at all but I think they are in the play offs this time.

Re: Toronto rejected. : Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:24 am  

Let’s say a club takes around 21 players to Toronto. Plus coaching and medical staff, so total maybe around 30. Plus I imagine taking basic training equipment like tackle bags. Plus the hotel costs. Plus the transport from the airport to the hotel, the hotel to the stadium etc.

Pretty costly exercise for a game of rugby?

That’s excluding the current COVID situation. Castleford had 12 players become infected after sitting on the m62 for three hours, what’s a plane to Canada going to do?