Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:08 pm  

Miro wrote:

Yes, of course there should be contingency plans but the depth of planing for this one goes way beyond a mere contingency plan. I do not believe it was and do you believe it was. Time will tell.

However way you look at it they are talking of a Economic re-set or a New World Order. The term “new world order” was, I believe, coined by the elites. So don't blame me for a dodgy conspiracy.

Are we having a re-set or not? You now say it's a "good practice" yet have been calling me a "dodgy conspiracy theorist" Mek thi mind up lad.
You mention democracy, the re-set, is it democracy? Will we, the British, have a vote on it? Because it seems far more reaching than Brexit, or will the "good guy" Bill Gates, an American, have his own way? Because, as I see it, you seem quite happy to suspend democracy for this re-set or even refuse to question the re-set, preffering to argue the opposite with us. That's after denying it's existence for so long.
But worse, you really think we, the people will benefit? No chance.

So....apart from New Zealand, with the population of Batley (joke). Name some governments past and present you trust, simple enough question.

As for Bill Gates, May I repeat what I related to coco:

Over 600,000 Americans sign a petition this year for the White House to investigate Bill Gates for “medical malpractice” Five times the required amount necessary.
Now correct me if I'm out of order here but would you buy a second hand car from a guy with a say 60 or 600 or 6000, 60,000 ? or even 600,000 petition to investigate him?
My guess is you would not, just out of caution mind.
Lets just say I'm cautious, very, very cautious

You find him a “good guy” over half a million Americans and I disagree.
I know who's side I prefer to err on.

As for how the world should respond to a pandemic. I have set this out many times, herd immunity is one, you know, the one we relied on for millions of years.

By the way, you never did get back to us regarding the devastation caused by the sanctions imposed upon us. I ask again, what's your view re suicides, cancer, unemployment, losing homes due to unable to pay mortgages, rents etc. And these problems will reverberate with us for years and years to come.

Quick question, how did you become such an expert in such a short time?.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:01 pm  

Good quality weed and YouTube.

The conspiracy route is also a manifestation of some people’s fear.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 2:52 pm  

coco the fullback wrote: Do you have a link to the source of the data you quoted? This? https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths If nothing had been done at all prior to the 23rd (actually came in to force on the 26th) March then you could have a point, but actions had been taken before then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... m_(January–June_2020) Guess what? 23 days from the 16th March is 8th April. It became clear that not enough people were following government advice, so a more strict lockdown was needed. I guess it depends on where you trust for you information really. Media reports with vested interest or actual scientific studies from across the globe. https://www.nber.org/papers/w26906 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... 020-4?op=1 https://www.vox.com/2020/6/9/21284087/c ... ses-deaths https://www.politico.eu/article/coronav ... -graphics/ https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020071 ... e-evidence https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05- ... covid.html Meanwhile, from other sources... along your line of reasoning https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/04/62572/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/04/2 ... lockdowns/ The problem with these is the insistence that it wasn't lockdown that caused the decline because the numbers started to drop after 15 days, which is too early. A bit of a coincidence that this happened eh? but nothing to do with the lockdown. Have a look at Brazil to see what happens without lockdown. Don't get me started with 'look at Sweden'. They did have some restrictions, but not a lockdown. Sweden population = 10.3 million - Covid deaths = 5930 (576 deaths per million population) Norway, Finland and Denmark combined population =16.7 million - Total Covid deaths = 1328 (80 deaths per million population) Source: Johns Hopkins University / BBC Depends what price you put on lives I suppose. I'm sure not locking down protected the economy in Sweden though... or not. https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... 020-8?op=1 Yeah I think the link is https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths proves my point. As for the guidance on the 16th March, it was our original approach similar to that of the approach in Sweden; washing hands, stay home if you are sick, work from home if you can etc - certainly one I'd endorse. This was and still is the most sensible approach based on over 40 years of epidemiology knowledge, no reason to change it. Whether it had an actual significant impact on the curve early on is difficult to know. But based on my own personal experience after the announcement, I found working in Leeds city centre that week was still busy and towards the end of the week there was a mad rush on in the shops buying food etc. I only started noticing a real difference after the 23rd March when the shops and streets became very quiet. By Friday 27th March the whole of Leeds was practically empty. Sweden? I thought they adopted a strategy to flatten the curve after they discovered, just like the UK, that the virus was already widespread in their community. I never heard anyone talking about saving the most lives from C19 in the population, it was all about flattening the curve. As we did in the UK they achieved their aims. In comparison to Norway, Finland and Denmark they either didn't have the virus widespread in the first place or if they did there was not enough susceptible people in the population to infect with the disease. The head of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health believes Norway could have brought the coronavirus pandemic under control without a lockdown, and called for the country to avoid such far-reaching measures if hit by a second wave. https://www.thelocal.no/20200522/norway ... alth-chief South America is a different kettle of fish to Europe. To be fair to countries like Brazil they were unlucky as the outbreak of the virus was followed by them entering into their Winter season. Looking at the the daily deaths they have still been falling since the 29th July regardless of a nationwide lockdown mandate. I fully expect the rate will continue to fall as they start to enter the summer months in December. Admittedly they did have a prolonged 2 month peak prior to 29th July but this can be explained as mentioned before on it being coupled with the Winter season. Lets now use the example of Brazil against the country with the worlds strictest lockdown, Peru, in the same continent as them. Their lockdown was militarised but they still have a higher death rate per capita and less susceptible number of people to run through than Brazil Peru population = 33,114,228 million - Covid deaths = 34,033 (1,028 deaths per million population) Brazil population = 213,032,208 million - Total Covid deaths = 156,528 (735 deaths per million population) Source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ My point is if you looked at all the graphs and you were blinded to the label of each country. I'd be surprised if you could tell me just by looking at them which countries lockdown and which didn't.

coco the fullback wrote: Do you have a link to the source of the data you quoted? This? https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths If nothing had been done at all prior to the 23rd (actually came in to force on the 26th) March then you could have a point, but actions had been taken before then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... m_(January–June_2020) Guess what? 23 days from the 16th March is 8th April. It became clear that not enough people were following government advice, so a more strict lockdown was needed. I guess it depends on where you trust for you information really. Media reports with vested interest or actual scientific studies from across the globe. https://www.nber.org/papers/w26906 https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... 020-4?op=1 https://www.vox.com/2020/6/9/21284087/c ... ses-deaths https://www.politico.eu/article/coronav ... -graphics/ https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/2020071 ... e-evidence https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05- ... covid.html Meanwhile, from other sources... along your line of reasoning https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/04/62572/ https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/04/2 ... lockdowns/ The problem with these is the insistence that it wasn't lockdown that caused the decline because the numbers started to drop after 15 days, which is too early. A bit of a coincidence that this happened eh? but nothing to do with the lockdown. Have a look at Brazil to see what happens without lockdown. Don't get me started with 'look at Sweden'. They did have some restrictions, but not a lockdown. Sweden population = 10.3 million - Covid deaths = 5930 (576 deaths per million population) Norway, Finland and Denmark combined population =16.7 million - Total Covid deaths = 1328 (80 deaths per million population) Source: Johns Hopkins University / BBC Depends what price you put on lives I suppose. I'm sure not locking down protected the economy in Sweden though... or not. https://www.businessinsider.com/coronav ... 020-8?op=1 Yeah I think the link is https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths proves my point. As for the guidance on the 16th March, it was our original approach similar to that of the approach in Sweden; washing hands, stay home if you are sick, work from home if you can etc - certainly one I'd endorse. This was and still is the most sensible approach based on over 40 years of epidemiology knowledge, no reason to change it. Whether it had an actual significant impact on the curve early on is difficult to know. But based on my own personal experience after the announcement, I found working in Leeds city centre that week was still busy and towards the end of the week there was a mad rush on in the shops buying food etc. I only started noticing a real difference after the 23rd March when the shops and streets became very quiet. By Friday 27th March the whole of Leeds was practically empty. Sweden? I thought they adopted a strategy to flatten the curve after they discovered, just like the UK, that the virus was already widespread in their community. I never heard anyone talking about saving the most lives from C19 in the population, it was all about flattening the curve. As we did in the UK they achieved their aims. In comparison to Norway, Finland and Denmark they either didn't have the virus widespread in the first place or if they did there was not enough susceptible people in the population to infect with the disease. The head of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health believes Norway could have brought the coronavirus pandemic under control without a lockdown, and called for the country to avoid such far-reaching measures if hit by a second wave. https://www.thelocal.no/20200522/norway ... alth-chief South America is a different kettle of fish to Europe. To be fair to countries like Brazil they were unlucky as the outbreak of the virus was followed by them entering into their Winter season. Looking at the the daily deaths they have still been falling since the 29th July regardless of a nationwide lockdown mandate. I fully expect the rate will continue to fall as they start to enter the summer months in December. Admittedly they did have a prolonged 2 month peak prior to 29th July but this can be explained as mentioned before on it being coupled with the Winter season. Lets now use the example of Brazil against the country with the worlds strictest lockdown, Peru, in the same continent as them. Their lockdown was militarised but they still have a higher death rate per capita and less susceptible number of people to run through than Brazil Peru population = 33,114,228 million - Covid deaths = 34,033 (1,028 deaths per million population) Brazil population = 213,032,208 million - Total Covid deaths = 156,528 (735 deaths per million population) Source - https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ My point is if you looked at all the graphs and you were blinded to the label of each country. I'd be surprised if you could tell me just by looking at them which countries lockdown and which didn't.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 3:14 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I mentioned New Zealand as a success story in controlling the virus, which even you will struggle to argue with and pointed out that broadly speaking, they, along with most other countries have followed a similar path in trying to control it's spread, with restrictions on travel, social distancing and better hygiene practices, oh yeah and the wearing of face coverings.
They have been very successful, as have some other nations and are now getting back to "normal".

As I said, observation not subservience

Just a few points to put New Zealand's performance into context for you - population a mere 5,002,100, population density of 46/mi², which ranks them as low as 200 out of 232 countries in the world.

Using the C19 deaths per million chart they are the 3rd highest hit country in their Oceainia region consisting of 14 countries, only Australia and French Polynesia are faring worst than them. They've recorded more deaths per million than much larger countries in neighboring regions of Asia - Thailand, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Taiwan and Cambodia. All these countries have a population count of well over 16 million to almost 100 million people.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:35 pm  

MatthewTrin wrote:

Just a few points to put New Zealand's performance into context for you - population a mere 5,002,100, population density of 46/mi², which ranks them as low as 200 out of 232 countries in the world.

Using the C19 deaths per million chart they are the 3rd highest hit country in their Oceainia region consisting of 14 countries, only Australia and French Polynesia are faring worst than them. They've recorded more deaths per million than much larger countries in neighboring regions of Asia - Thailand, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Taiwan and Cambodia. All these countries have a population count of well over 16 million to almost 100 million people.

Are you saying that they havent done very well ?
I fully accept that their population density and numbers are massively different to ours, which gives them a huge advantage when trying to keep on top of the virus.

However, the point that I was making is that there seem to be well on top of the virus and there is nobody forcing 5G on them or injecting them with some dodgy vaccine and yet, broadly speaking, they are following the same route as much of the rest of the world.
The "world re set theory" doesn't seem to be a factor fot them or the other countries that you have suggested are doing "better" than New Zealand.

I will ask the same question of you that I asked Miro

What is your position on the virus and how it should be handled and do you still believe that it is a factor in "your" "world re set" theory ?

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:40 pm  

Dunkirk Spirit wrote:

Sorry to interrupt, but the population of New Zealand, is a mere 5 million, compared to U.K. 65 million. I’m sure even you would agree that it’s easier to control 5 million than 65 million.

Absolutely and their population density is nothing like ours.
However, as I said, their strategy is broadly similar to other nations and our resident "expert" has been suggesting that "everyone" has got this wrong AND that their is a "world re set" taking place.

Every government will have made some mistakes, as this was a "new" virus but, the wider comments from Miro and Matthew, which seem to suggest that the virus is part of a much broader "attack" doesn't stack up.

As you were.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:51 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Are you saying that they havent done very well ?

I'm saying it would be like me praising my German Shepherd every night for keeping grizzly bears away from the front door.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:19 pm  

MatthewTrin wrote:

I'm saying it would be like me praising my German Shepherd every night for keeping grizzly bears away from the front door.

Ah, so they (NZ) arent at risk form 5G or the vaccine, just the "global re set"

What about your own position on the virus and how it should be dealt with ?

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:53 pm  

Correction on page 52 - 23 days after 23 March 2020 (lockdown) in theory would give us a peak infection to fatality date of at least 15th April 2020. Using the whole UK data from the page https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths 8th April (peak of epidemic) - 1,073 15th April (affect of lockdown) - 878 Again this shows the rate was already falling before the affect of the lockdown could come in. Looks like the lockdown mastermind Prof. Ferguson agrees 'Coronavirus: enforcing UK lockdown one week earlier 'could have saved 20,000 lives' https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... l-ferguson Only true of course if you believe lockdowns actually have a significant impact, I have my doubts.

Correction on page 52 - 23 days after 23 March 2020 (lockdown) in theory would give us a peak infection to fatality date of at least 15th April 2020. Using the whole UK data from the page https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/deaths 8th April (peak of epidemic) - 1,073 15th April (affect of lockdown) - 878 Again this shows the rate was already falling before the affect of the lockdown could come in. Looks like the lockdown mastermind Prof. Ferguson agrees 'Coronavirus: enforcing UK lockdown one week earlier 'could have saved 20,000 lives' https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... l-ferguson Only true of course if you believe lockdowns actually have a significant impact, I have my doubts.

Re: What now for fans watching ? - Covid chat : Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:06 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote: Ah, so they (NZ) arent at risk form 5G or the vaccine, just the "global re set" What about your own position on the virus and how it should be dealt with ? Protect the vulnerable and those most at risk. https://gbdeclaration.org/

wrencat1873 wrote: Ah, so they (NZ) arent at risk form 5G or the vaccine, just the "global re set" What about your own position on the virus and how it should be dealt with ? Protect the vulnerable and those most at risk. https://gbdeclaration.org/