Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:38 am  

PopTart wrote:

I agree.
And for me it is in the half backs

The forwards can defend well but not when they are making way more tackles than the opposition.
Same for the backs in attack. If you are getting the ball above your head you are slower to start your run and so are tackled easily.

Brough would have solved the issue but is just broken now so we need to find another.
Hampshire isn't that guy yet. Max is closer in some skills but not in others.

The issues against Catalan were multiple but for me they were simple ones that added together.
Ball control and getting players fit would change that result completely.

I agree with the 'organising' by the half backs and the lack of quality ball going across the line. However, I feel that the first priority is with the forwards, they need to be making the yardage in order to give the backs more space. Get the opposition on the back foot and it makes it easier for everyone. Scooting from acting half also puts the opposition on the back foot and this is also an area that we seem to be lacking. Our last tackle play must be the worst in the league and I can never understand why when we try and kick on the last, our 'kicker' is nearly always under pressure from the opposition, whilst the opposition seem to have plenty of time and room to kick.

[PopTart]

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 9:36 am  

phe13 wrote:

I agree with the 'organising' by the half backs and the lack of quality ball going across the line. However, I feel that the first priority is with the forwards, they need to be making the yardage in order to give the backs more space. Get the opposition on the back foot and it makes it easier for everyone. Scooting from acting half also puts the opposition on the back foot and this is also an area that we seem to be lacking. Our last tackle play must be the worst in the league and I can never understand why when we try and kick on the last, our 'kicker' is nearly always under pressure from the opposition, whilst the opposition seem to have plenty of time and room to kick.

If you look at the stats our forwards actually made good ground. We just didn't do anything with it once they got where they were going.
For instance
Kopczek made the most carries with 19 and made 20 tackles with no misses. His average gain was only 6 but not terrible given the number of carries
Ashurst made 35 tackles with no misses. He made 10 carries averaging 8 metres
Pitts made 25 tackles missing 1. He only made 5 carries but averaged 10 metres for each.
Fifita made 26 tackles missing 2. Made 15 carries averaging 8.
Navarette seemed to always take the hard yards with 13 carries but averaging 5 but made 23 tackles and no misses.

The hookers made 56 tackles between them and only missed 2.

The telling stats to me are
5 missed tackles each for the centres, though Lyne made considerably more successful ones than Tupou.
And Kicks in general play, which are the end of set kicks.....Hampshire 3 Westerman 1 Ashurst 1 Wood 4 Fifita 1 Miller 4 .......... that is wrong on so many levels.

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:05 am  

Willzay wrote:

We were. If it weren’t for Johnstone’s bit of magic there was hardly anything to shout about. Every time we got to Wigan’s line we had no idea what to do and the attack fizzled out.

You do realise it doesn’t work like that. You could drop in any HB in the world and it wouldn’t make much difference if the rest of the team don’t do there jobs.

Apart from the two Woods nobody did on Saturday. Fifita taking every ball standing, he gets no flak on here but he was technically rubbish. What the hell was happening in the backs god knows, Lyne and Tupou non existent in both attack and defence.

No dummy runners, no support play, no running from deep, no offloads, no sliding defence, woeful ball retention, no kicking game - frankly there was no facet of the game we did even remotely well.

No HB can sort all that. You can’t create play if nobody is playing. About the only thing he could offer would be some better kicks, maybe.

[PopTart]

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:15 am  

vastman wrote:

You do realise it doesn’t work like that. You could drop in any HB in the world and it wouldn’t make much difference if the rest of the team don’t do there jobs.

Apart from the two Woods nobody did on Saturday. Fifita taking every ball standing, he gets no flak on here but he was technically rubbish. What the hell was happening in the backs god knows, Lyne and Tupou non existent in both attack and defence.

No dummy runners, no support play, no running from deep, no offloads, no sliding defence, woeful ball retention, no kicking game - frankly there was no facet of the game we did even remotely well.

No HB can sort all that. You can’t create play if nobody is playing. About the only thing he could offer would be some better kicks, maybe.

I get your point but I disagree about the one player making a difference bit. . If you put a good scrum half there that can organise, and maybe a fullback who can organise as well the team changes drastically.

Tim Smith had his faults but apart from a magical pass, the thing I liked about him was that he shouted orders and made people follow them. I've seen him run to a forward and actually drag him to the place he wants him to stand before making his pass.
That's what we need right now.
Tupou and Lyne didn't become bad defenders overnight. They were disorganised.

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:26 am  

We’ve been over this ground for the last few seasons , you could have a top Aussie pair of halfbacks but if the forwards don’t lay the platform for them its wasted opportunity every time . Our forwards were out gunned and out muscled by a more dominant pack which left all the back line with no where to go . People moan about mclloram’s tactics but not one player stood up to him and gave him some biff back. It a tough game and if you go in half hearted these are the type of scorelines you end up with. Wearing the shirt with pride and getting stuck in will go a long in any game.

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:51 am  

PopTart wrote:

If you look at the stats our forwards actually made good ground. We just didn't do anything with it once they got where they were going.
For instance
Kopczek made the most carries with 19 and made 20 tackles with no misses. His average gain was only 6 but not terrible given the number of carries
Ashurst made 35 tackles with no misses. He made 10 carries averaging 8 metres
Pitts made 25 tackles missing 1. He only made 5 carries but averaged 10 metres for each.
Fifita made 26 tackles missing 2. Made 15 carries averaging 8.
Navarette seemed to always take the hard yards with 13 carries but averaging 5 but made 23 tackles and no misses.

The hookers made 56 tackles between them and only missed 2.

The telling stats to me are
5 missed tackles each for the centres, though Lyne made considerably more successful ones than Tupou.
And Kicks in general play, which are the end of set kicks.....Hampshire 3 Westerman 1 Ashurst 1 Wood 4 Fifita 1 Miller 4 .......... that is wrong on so many levels.

It's quite interesting your facts and stats on the general level of performance of the forwards on Saturday. I say this because of Chester's post match comments, which basically layed the blame on said forwards for the inept display? We all know that stats in any sport don't tell the whole story, but for me we seem to have been conned into thinking we have a good pack of forwards, i'm not sure we have. Apart from Fifita I just don't see anything out of the ordinary, which is also compounded by selection and in particular players out of position, ie Tanginoa being 'killed' playing at prop. Where is Chris Green? A better version of Hirst for me, he should be in the 17 if fit. Tangata is a championship prop, Kopczack is just about done, Josh Wood is tenacious in defence and tackles well above his weight, but his passing accuracy is terrible, time and again the 1st receiver has to jump and twist to catch the ball and the whole passing movement falls down at the very start?! Ashurst looks a shadow of his former self, but mitigating circumstances as with Tupou because of serious injuries, but they both appear to be going backwards to me? The most worrying factor to me was, just watching the first 10 minutes it was always going to be a case of how many they were going to get, that can't be right at that level of sport, I didn't get that feeling watching any of the other games. Going right back to London last season, too many games where there just seems to be an apathy, a listless, lifelessness form the players, like they are coasting, going through the motions, no busting a gut, looking like they don't want it enough, you can't cut corners on an RL field, no hiding places, fans won't have the wool pulled over their eyes, it isn't rocket science is it?!

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:36 am  

After reading all these comments it seems like it's the team's fault & not any of the coaches Interesting.... I'll just say this you can tell a coached side it even brings the average players on

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:37 pm  

Little willy wrote:

After reading all these comments it seems like it's the team's fault & not any of the coaches Interesting.... I'll just say this you can tell a coached side it even brings the average players on

Yes your right about the coaches role in all this shambles , but also we have to look at the apathy of the players and the reasons why they don’t want to put a shift in for the club . These aren’t wet behind the ear young lads ,most are seasoned pros .Either Chester isn’t getting his message across or the players ain’t listening, whatever the problem is it needs a reaction this week from players and staff

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:09 pm  

PopTart wrote:

I get your point but I disagree about the one player making a difference bit. . If you put a good scrum half there that can organise, and maybe a fullback who can organise as well the team changes drastically.

Tim Smith had his faults but apart from a magical pass, the thing I liked about him was that he shouted orders and made people follow them. I've seen him run to a forward and actually drag him to the place he wants him to stand before making his pass.
That's what we need right now.
Tupou and Lyne didn't become bad defenders overnight. They were disorganised.

anyone with any knowledge of the game knows full well that our problems stem from the forwards, they are simply not functioning as a pack and that’s not to say we’ve not got the size or the personal. How can we possibly get on top we are getting smashed. We’ve ashurst stood out wide tipping on like an extra centre, one forward down, we’ve fafita running so far sideways he’s nearly in hull another forward down. We’ve the hooker passing it on and we’ve also any Tom dick or Harry running it in and passing awful slow ball out of the back. We play a second row at prop and leave our supposedly best forward on the bench when we should be getting a foothold in the match.
We are well capable of churning out a good result here and there but use what we’ve got right, hard and straight one after the other. This might actually give the backs a remote chance of doing something.
We played Wigan last week they had a young inexperienced pack out and we still got rolled when we should of basically bullied and tried to kick the crap out them even if it meant just running at them down the middle, the trouble is we never play any different for any team and it’s been same for a few year, we’ve been worked out it’s a simple as that.

Re: Time for some honesty. : Mon Aug 17, 2020 3:16 pm  

MOPSEY LIVES ON wrote:

anyone with any knowledge of the game knows full well that our problems stem from the forwards, they are simply not functioning as a pack and that’s not to say we’ve not got the size or the personal. How can we possibly get on top we are getting smashed. We’ve ashurst stood out wide tipping on like an extra centre, one forward down, we’ve fafita running so far sideways he’s nearly in hull another forward down. We’ve the hooker passing it on and we’ve also any Tom dick or Harry running it in and passing awful slow ball out of the back. We play a second row at prop and leave our supposedly best forward on the bench when we should be getting a foothold in the match.
We are well capable of churning out a good result here and there but use what we’ve got right, hard and straight one after the other. This might actually give the backs a remote chance of doing something.
We played Wigan last week they had a young inexperienced pack out and we still got rolled when we should of basically bullied and tried to kick the crap out them even if it meant just running at them down the middle, the trouble is we never play any different for any team and it’s been same for a few year, we’ve been worked out it’s a simple as that.

That’s how I see it.

You and I have disagreed many times over Rocky whilst I’m convinced Jowitt is a future S/O but one thing is for certain, the way our forwards play at the moment neither will ever get the chance to prove us right or wrong.

It’s criminal that we have a stonking back line that never gets clean ball. If TJ were not such a freak acrobat he’d never score!! When did he last score a clean length of the field try. Truth is he never gets any space these days, hell we don’t even know if he’s recovered his pace since injury it’s so long.

The forwards are utterly dreadful at present. Nothing to do with size or fitness it’s attitude - I’ll be blunt, they are mostly lazy.

Honourable exceptions for Naverette, Tangata and Batch and Crowther but the latter are yet to play so who knows.

It’s those who should be leading who are at fault. Dave is simply not at the races, injuries or not he’s nothing like where he should be. Westerman was an utter liability and made Gigot’s efforts the week before look epic. Ashurst as Mopsey says is just hanging around in the centres and is a total waste. Koppy does the bare minimum, Tanganoa does what I think he’s always done, flatters to deceive.

The more I think about it the more annoyed I get. I hate to say it because I couldn’t match these lads, even the worst of them in my finest days but they are soft.

Sadly you can only be that way at a club where you can get away with it. If CC is failing this is where he’s failing. Sure he’s had no luck but you sometimes have to make that yourself.