Re: A season for real optimism : Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:15 pm  

Poching seems happy with your squad depth https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/ ... the-future

Poching seems happy with your squad depth https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/ ... the-future

Re: A season for real optimism : Fri Dec 31, 2021 7:47 pm  

jonh wrote:

I think he lacks the natural pace to be a half.

He though has the frame to be a ball playing loose which as we have seen at Wakefield recently can be a real asset to a team in a division dominated by props running at 13.

Personally think a ball handing 13 is arguably the most important position on the field if you have a good one.

A good player in whatever position is as crucial as every other one. In fact, I'll go further and say a ball-playing loose forward is the least important position.

Better than a gifted full-back, when they are often the difference in attack between two well-matched sides?
More crucial than a good half-back or hooker?
Better than a gifted second-rower making hay down the flanks, like Solomona?
More crucial than a centre with vision alongside a winger with speed and finishing?
More crucial than a barnstorming, tough-tackling prop?

I'd say a ball-handling loose forward is the least important. They won't create a strong pack out a weak pack and they won't have the vision of a wily half-back. I can't recall ever leaving a game and thinking, "if only we had a ball-playing loose forward". I've left plenty thinking, "our half-backs went missing today" or "our props aren't big enough" or "is he really our best full-back?"

Sinfield is probably the recent exception in terms of making a side, but he played plenty of games at half-back and his strength was his kicking game, not his ball-handling.

As for speed, not crucial for a half-back if they have the hands, feet and vision.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 8:27 am  

Slugger McBatt wrote:

A good player in whatever position is as crucial as every other one. In fact, I'll go further and say a ball-playing loose forward is the least important position.

Better than a gifted full-back, when they are often the difference in attack between two well-matched sides?
More crucial than a good half-back or hooker?
Better than a gifted second-rower making hay down the flanks, like Solomona?
More crucial than a centre with vision alongside a winger with speed and finishing?
More crucial than a barnstorming, tough-tackling prop?

I'd say a ball-handling loose forward is the least important. They won't create a strong pack out a weak pack and they won't have the vision of a wily half-back. I can't recall ever leaving a game and thinking, "if only we had a ball-playing loose forward". I've left plenty thinking, "our half-backs went missing today" or "our props aren't big enough" or "is he really our best full-back?"

Sinfield is probably the recent exception in terms of making a side, but he played plenty of games at half-back and his strength was his kicking game, not his ball-handling.

As for speed, not crucial for a half-back if they have the hands, feet and vision.

Well slugger I’ll have to disagree on a few points .Danny Brough was as good a half back as anywhere in the league until he lost a yard of pace at the back end of his stint with us ,head could do it but the legs couldn’t ,can’t beat pace I’m afraid ,especially in the half’s n hookers.Westerman at times was head and shoulders our best player on the field at loose forward this last season and will be missed , that magic triangle with the half’s ,get that right and your going places .just look back at your sculthorpe,Farrell combinations ,world class . But you certainly need a decent squad around these players to take advantage and it’s certainly not a cert at getting that combination right and that’s where the coach earns his coin for me .For me I’m interested who will partner hood and who gets the loose forwards birth ,the rest have picked themselves.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:43 am  

Slugger McBatt wrote:

A good player in whatever position is as crucial as every other one. In fact, I'll go further and say a ball-playing loose forward is the least important position.

Better than a gifted full-back, when they are often the difference in attack between two well-matched sides?
More crucial than a good half-back or hooker?
Better than a gifted second-rower making hay down the flanks, like Solomona?
More crucial than a centre with vision alongside a winger with speed and finishing?
More crucial than a barnstorming, tough-tackling prop?

I'd say a ball-handling loose forward is the least important. They won't create a strong pack out a weak pack and they won't have the vision of a wily half-back. I can't recall ever leaving a game and thinking, "if only we had a ball-playing loose forward". I've left plenty thinking, "our half-backs went missing today" or "our props aren't big enough" or "is he really our best full-back?"

Sinfield is probably the recent exception in terms of making a side, but he played plenty of games at half-back and his strength was his kicking game, not his ball-handling.

As for speed, not crucial for a half-back if they have the hands, feet and vision.

Tend to agree. It’s just my opinion but I think a lot of people are living in the past looking for a game that doesn’t exist.

So I’ll go even further than you, I don’t think the position of LF exists anymore or at least not in the sense that some think.

I don’t even think I’m being radical, if you listen to the coaches they are telling us, or the smart one are.

As far as I can see there are only two kinds of forward. Middles, basically props and the more straight up SR’s and wide players.

Hookers, SH’s and SO’s are virtually indistinguishable and will often swap rolls as the game demands. Wingers and FB’s are another.

For me only centres seem to have a truly specialist roll anymore.

This imho is due to three things. A distinct lack of talent, especially creative and big lads with heart. Cost of a quality squad of over 30 players and as yet no reserve comp to pick from, this is changing I know. Injuries, in the old days tough men who needed the money often played half there careers with injuries that should have retired them, now we don’t play injured players.

The latter is the right thing to do but it comes with a huge cost. What other industry can afford an asset like Tupou sat on the bench for over a year. In a normal industry he’d be shipped out and replaced with new. This is effectively what used to happen until proper contract became enforced.

As I say the right thing to do but in financial and playing terms it’s a huge burden.

Hence the aim to slim down speciality players with multiple-roll players. You can bemoan the lack of these players all you want but they are a luxury and most clubs can only afford a few.

That’s how I see it and that’s how any coach of a smaller club has to see it. So for me we persevere with players like Abrahams in the hope that we manage to produce the sort of player we can’t afford to buy.

Just my opinion

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:46 am  

Slugger McBatt wrote:

A good player in whatever position is as crucial as every other one. In fact, I'll go further and say a ball-playing loose forward is the least important position.

Better than a gifted full-back, when they are often the difference in attack between two well-matched sides?
More crucial than a good half-back or hooker?
Better than a gifted second-rower making hay down the flanks, like Solomona?
More crucial than a centre with vision alongside a winger with speed and finishing?
More crucial than a barnstorming, tough-tackling prop?

I'd say a ball-handling loose forward is the least important. They won't create a strong pack out a weak pack and they won't have the vision of a wily half-back. I can't recall ever leaving a game and thinking, "if only we had a ball-playing loose forward". I've left plenty thinking, "our half-backs went missing today" or "our props aren't big enough" or "is he really our best full-back?"

Sinfield is probably the recent exception in terms of making a side, but he played plenty of games at half-back and his strength was his kicking game, not his ball-handling.

As for speed, not crucial for a half-back if they have the hands, feet and vision.

Sinfield, O’Loughlin, Farrell, Sculthorpe, Hanley.

All revered as outstanding players.

All ball handling 13’s.

To me a ball handing 13 is one that does all of the above, he tends to be the complete play hence the reason all the above lads played multiple positions and played them at fantastic level.

Westerman when he joined us added a different dimension to how we played. He created a link between the backs and forwards which had been missing and this is exactly what a good ball handing 13 does.

Sadly it’s an art which is very much on an outer. I think Westerman is probably the only one that remains in SL. The tendency to run with a 3rd prop at 13 is one that is for me a very negative tactic.

In relation to Charlie he seems to play as a strike half from what I have seen on him, like Miller. Strike halves generally rely on having a bit of pace. I agree in some circumstances halves can rely on other aspects of their game such as Liam Finn for example who was the midfield general who guided us round the park and complimented Miller so well, leaving him to play that strike role.

For me the young lad lacks the pace to be a strike half but he has the pace, potential and frame on which to develop into a very good 13.

It’s all immaterial, and I don’t mean any disrespect to the young man with my comments. Ultimately he is another good young player coming through the ranks of what is becoming a very successful development pathway at the club and I’ve no doubt the club will do what is best for him in regards to nurturing his talent.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:35 am  

On the subject of young Charlie ,in the term his future may not lie at wakefield ,both lee briers and Luke Gale amongst others left bigger clubs to hone their skill at a perceived lower club to get quality game time ,and it didn’t turn out too shabby for either in the long run .Its a huge step up for players to super league which can have an adverse affect on young players at such an early time in their development.Just look at young trueman , arrived on the scene and hailed as the new messiah at Cas ,then injuries and inconsistencies have plagued him this last season, hopefully he will kick on and get back to his best ,but it’s tough at the top with no place to hide .Then on the other hand you have young Harry Newman ,even though a badly broken leg had curtailed him short term but he has got back on the horse and looking at him on Boxing Day he’s taken to rugby like a duck to water and IMO the world is his oyster . What I’m aiming at is that players develop at different rates and it a fine line between making it and falling short ,some just take a little longer to reach the top of the pile that’s all ,and some just don’t, but it doesn’t make them a bad player .For me Westerman lost his way over the years for various reasons and never hit the dizzy height he deserved, but his time at wakefield seems to rejuvenated his appetite for the game and hope he goes well for Cas ,as the game is crying out for quality players whichever club they turn out for ,as we need a exciting super league after the disruption we’ve endured to get the fans appetite back for the game and get the footfall back into the grounds .

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:55 am  

jonh wrote:

Sinfield, O’Loughlin, Farrell, Sculthorpe, Hanley.

All revered as outstanding players.

All ball handling 13’s.

To me a ball handing 13 is one that does all of the above, he tends to be the complete play hence the reason all the above lads played multiple positions and played them at fantastic level.

Westerman when he joined us added a different dimension to how we played. He created a link between the backs and forwards which had been missing and this is exactly what a good ball handing 13 does.

Sadly it’s an art which is very much on an outer. I think Westerman is probably the only one that remains in SL. The tendency to run with a 3rd prop at 13 is one that is for me a very negative tactic.

In relation to Charlie he seems to play as a strike half from what I have seen on him, like Miller. Strike halves generally rely on having a bit of pace. I agree in some circumstances halves can rely on other aspects of their game such as Liam Finn for example who was the midfield general who guided us round the park and complimented Miller so well, leaving him to play that strike role.

For me the young lad lacks the pace to be a strike half but he has the pace, potential and frame on which to develop into a very good 13.

It’s all immaterial, and I don’t mean any disrespect to the young man with my comments. Ultimately he is another good young player coming through the ranks of what is becoming a very successful development pathway at the club and I’ve no doubt the club will do what is best for him in regards to nurturing his talent.

I don’t want to be argumentative on this one but all those players belong to a different era.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:54 am  

1315trinity wrote:

Yeah close season it's great to be joint top for a few months but I feel optimistic for the coming season.
There seems to be a buzz under the new regime !

We're unbeaten this year !

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 12:23 pm  

vastman wrote:

I don’t want to be argumentative on this one but all those players belong to a different era.

An era where fans were packed in watching scrums being contested ,loose forwards plying their trade ,rough tough no compromise forwards ,bring those days back for me ,real characters which have now been that diluted the game isn’t a patch on the old ways . Piling out of the mines on a week night to watch cas n wakey at a packed weldon rd n watching Joiner ,steadman , nikau plying their trades, the first time I saw dereck fox kicking sideways at rovers I was mesmerised ,brilliant times not to be repeated I’m afraid ,and there lies the problem . After all RL was setup out of the Mills ,mines and factories of the then northern powerhouse .I’m all for player welfare and there is no place for head high tackles in the sport ,but if we carry on diluting it down it will be no more than touch and pass .Bring back the Biff I say bring back the knocker Norton’s the sorensons bring back the characters and bring back the excitement,I feel like my children/ grandchildren have been cheated to some extent watching the modern era

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:09 pm  

Kettykat wrote:

An era where fans were packed in watching scrums being contested ,loose forwards plying their trade ,rough tough no compromise forwards ,bring those days back for me ,real characters which have now been that diluted the game isn’t a patch on the old ways . Piling out of the mines on a week night to watch cas n wakey at a packed weldon rd n watching Joiner ,steadman , nikau plying their trades, the first time I saw dereck fox kicking sideways at rovers I was mesmerised ,brilliant times not to be repeated I’m afraid ,and there lies the problem . After all RL was setup out of the Mills ,mines and factories of the then northern powerhouse .I’m all for player welfare and there is no place for head high tackles in the sport ,but if we carry on diluting it down it will be no more than touch and pass .Bring back the Biff I say bring back the knocker Norton’s the sorensons bring back the characters and bring back the excitement,I feel like my children/ grandchildren have been cheated to some extent watching the modern era

I totally know what you mean but where I disagree is that there is any appetite for biff now. Call it woke or snowflakes or whatever but it simply wouldn’t be accepted now.

I’m all for representing the past as it was and accepting it was acceptable for the era. However I also accept that what was once ok no longer acceptable.

It’s a bit like comedies from the seventies, the blatant racism doesn’t concern me in the least and I can still watch and laugh, I accept they were of their time and shouldn’t be judged. If though they were to make a new comedy series with the same casual racism in now I’d be outraged!

We can learn from and enjoy the past good and bad but we can’t bring it back into a world where it no longer belongs.

So I enjoy my RL now every bit as much as I did, it’s just different.

There may come a point where the aggression and risk factor has been so watered down it no longer is RL but I think we at some way off that for now.