[PopTart]

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:12 pm  

Kettykat wrote:

An era where fans were packed in watching scrums being contested ,loose forwards plying their trade ,rough tough no compromise forwards ,bring those days back for me ,real characters which have now been that diluted the game isn’t a patch on the old ways . Piling out of the mines on a week night to watch cas n wakey at a packed weldon rd n watching Joiner ,steadman , nikau plying their trades, the first time I saw dereck fox kicking sideways at rovers I was mesmerised ,brilliant times not to be repeated I’m afraid ,and there lies the problem . After all RL was setup out of the Mills ,mines and factories of the then northern powerhouse .I’m all for player welfare and there is no place for head high tackles in the sport ,but if we carry on diluting it down it will be no more than touch and pass .Bring back the Biff I say bring back the knocker Norton’s the sorensons bring back the characters and bring back the excitement,I feel like my children/ grandchildren have been cheated to some extent watching the modern era

Your memory is failing you on the scrums. They were awful and usually ended in a penalty. I'm all for contested scrums again, but they need to be done properly.

As for the ball playing 13 conversation, it's a talent that be anywhere. But the core values of the player have to be there first.
Westerman was good for us because he ran the ball better than most in every game, and tackled hard in the middle every game. His ball playing was good but without the first two we'd have soon dropped him.
Pitts, Crowther and Arona can all do it but I'm not sure Pitts can run and tackle the same in the middle as on the edge, Crowther is less confident with pass and doesn't make the ground Westy did and Arona has lost some pace after injury.
I'd like and of them to step into that role. We don't need to bring one in...... Unless the next Farrell or Hanley knocks on the door.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:29 pm  

jonh wrote:

Sinfield, O’Loughlin, Farrell, Sculthorpe, Hanley.

All revered as outstanding players.

All ball handling 13’s.

To me a ball handing 13 is one that does all of the above, he tends to be the complete play hence the reason all the above lads played multiple positions and played them at fantastic level.

Westerman when he joined us added a different dimension to how we played. He created a link between the backs and forwards which had been missing and this is exactly what a good ball handing 13 does.

Sadly it’s an art which is very much on an outer. I think Westerman is probably the only one that remains in SL. The tendency to run with a 3rd prop at 13 is one that is for me a very negative tactic.

In relation to Charlie he seems to play as a strike half from what I have seen on him, like Miller. Strike halves generally rely on having a bit of pace. I agree in some circumstances halves can rely on other aspects of their game such as Liam Finn for example who was the midfield general who guided us round the park and complimented Miller so well, leaving him to play that strike role.

For me the young lad lacks the pace to be a strike half but he has the pace, potential and frame on which to develop into a very good 13.

It’s all immaterial, and I don’t mean any disrespect to the young man with my comments. Ultimately he is another good young player coming through the ranks of what is becoming a very successful development pathway at the club and I’ve no doubt the club will do what is best for him in regards to nurturing his talent.

But we are debating the importance of the position, not the individual talent of a small number of individuals, which are two different things, in reality.

And the people you’ve mentioned perhaps undermine your argument, because the ball-handlers you mentioned are about them as players, not position.

In most cases, loose forwards are centres who have talent that is wasted on the fringes and don’t mind the rough stuff, so they bulk up and move to thirteen. That is a well-trodden path, trodden by Farrell, Ellis, Westwood, Westerman, Hanley and many others. As they slow down further, and bulk up more, they gradually move through the pack to the front row.

As for the names you’ve mentioned, Farrell spent as much time in the centre, second row and front row as he did at loose forward. Thirteen was just one of his spots, so it was about utilising Farrell in the best way, not about the importance of the loose forward position, and the importance of the position was your argument.

Sculthorpe was a good player and captain, but I would suggest that the success of Saints was much more down to players like Sean Long and Keiron Cunningham than the importance of having a good loose forward.

Sinfield’s strength was his kicking game, not his handling.

Hanley was a unique individual. I held my breath for what individual feat of brilliance he would come up with, not for who he passed to or for the space he created for others.

As for speed for a half-back, it is important but not essential. Broughy lost some of his game when he lost his speed, but his game was partly about speed. Adam Reynolds was the slowest half-back in the NRL last year but also probably the best. He had everything else and was surrounded by people with speed. His job was to make the space for others, not for himself.

As for the player that led to this discussion, I haven’t seen him play so I can’t comment. It’s just off-season debate because we just need to talk about rugby!

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 1:54 pm  

Kettykat wrote:

An era where fans were packed in watching scrums being contested ,loose forwards plying their trade ,rough tough no compromise forwards ,bring those days back for me ,real characters which have now been that diluted the game isn’t a patch on the old ways . Piling out of the mines on a week night to watch cas n wakey at a packed weldon rd n watching Joiner ,steadman , nikau plying their trades, the first time I saw dereck fox kicking sideways at rovers I was mesmerised ,brilliant times not to be repeated I’m afraid ,and there lies the problem . After all RL was setup out of the Mills ,mines and factories of the then northern powerhouse .I’m all for player welfare and there is no place for head high tackles in the sport ,but if we carry on diluting it down it will be no more than touch and pass .Bring back the Biff I say bring back the knocker Norton’s the sorensons bring back the characters and bring back the excitement,I feel like my children/ grandchildren have been cheated to some extent watching the modern era

The problem is that the world has changed too.

I agree that I preferred the game when it was tougher and rougher, because that was part of the spectacle. But medical advances have meant that we have a greater understanding of the effect of repeated concussions, and that has an effect on how we can grow the game.

In terms of the world, people don’t do those tough jobs anymore. They work in offices in cleaner and safer environments. Even the physically tough workplaces, like building sites, there is a greater emphasis on employee safety.

So, in this safer, cleaner world, how could someone sell playing the game to the parents of small children if it was played like it was back in the seventies and eighties? Can you imagine trying to persuade a school welfare officer that they should encourage rugby league amongst the pupils? As an example, if you wanted to bring a former professional to a school to tell small children to play rugby league, the person you wouldn’t perhaps ask is Stevie Ward.

For the game to grow, or at least carry on, we needs lots of children to play it, as that is the future talent pool. To persuade parents, we need to make it safer.

I agree, the spectacle regarding toughness and brutality isn’t the same, but it’s adapt or die, I think.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 2:02 pm  

PopTart wrote:

Your memory is failing you on the scrums. They were awful and usually ended in a penalty. I'm all for contested scrums again, but they need to be done properly.

Yup. They had to bring in the differential penalty because of the routine nature of penalties from scrums, to stop games becoming about who kicked most penalties.

And scrums never can become clean, because you're dealing with twelve very competitive blokes all pushing and shoving each other. They either get messy, or they get penalised, or they don't compete. There's no middle, tidy ground really.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 4:42 pm  

Slugger McBatt wrote:

The problem is that the world has changed too.

I agree that I preferred the game when it was tougher and rougher, because that was part of the spectacle. But medical advances have meant that we have a greater understanding of the effect of repeated concussions, and that has an effect on how we can grow the game.

In terms of the world, people don’t do those tough jobs anymore. They work in offices in cleaner and safer environments. Even the physically tough workplaces, like building sites, there is a greater emphasis on employee safety.

So, in this safer, cleaner world, how could someone sell playing the game to the parents of small children if it was played like it was back in the seventies and eighties? Can you imagine trying to persuade a school welfare officer that they should encourage rugby league amongst the pupils? As an example, if you wanted to bring a former professional to a school to tell small children to play rugby league, the person you wouldn’t perhaps ask is Stevie Ward.

For the game to grow, or at least carry on, we needs lots of children to play it, as that is the future talent pool. To persuade parents, we need to make it safer.

I agree, the spectacle regarding toughness and brutality isn’t the same, but it’s adapt or die, I think.

My 12 and 10 year old grandchildren play both football and recently rugby and have took to the latter like ducks to water and much prefer the physical side of rugby . They have played football since they could walk as they have a football mad dad but my daughter is a chip off the old block and both kids play for wakefield hawks and eastmoor respectively .Two many football kids go for their parents to tick a box and are at best playing under duress from the parent.,much to my son in laws distaste as he has coached football for years. Kids don’t do rugby half hearted and he openly admits that the tv image of football stars falling like they’ve been shot by a sniper has been creeping into the game for a year or two .He tells plenty of football parents that their child’s two left feet are a hinderance in round ball sport but go and try rugby ,of which out of one durkar devil team 5 are now playing RL to a good standard .My grandson broke his forearm in the first few minutes of a game at siddal ,has it put him off NO he loves it and was upset at missing 6 games . Plenty of kids will be breaking limbs on their scooters in the coming weeks and months ,it’s life get on with it . Kids need to be more resilient not stuck in from of the x box or doing a dive at football to appease their parents . Safer cleaner world ( COVID) never in the history of man kind have we been so terrified of an infection which for the vast majority is like a Sunday morning hangover after a Saturday night session . Don’t get me started on the woke brigade ,I truly fear for what this country is turning into .As sad as it is to see stevie wards medical condition he is only a small percentage of people in Rl who have suffered early in his career with the effects of concussion.Any physical work catches up with you sooner or later as my replacement knees are testament to ,that the life I chose and I regret nothing and rugby is no different,make them aware and then they can make the choice,just look at boxing and MMA where they knock 7 bells out of each other ,even the woman. So let’s get RL in perspective, it’s certainly tough but the vast majority come out the other end no worse than me but with much bigger rewards .

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 5:18 pm  

Regarding the 13 postion for me a good 13 can help make a side.its part of a spine of the team. A good 13 should be able to be able to defend, run the ball in have good foot work a passing game and be able to read the game we can go on about say half back but you could have the best half back in the world but it makes no differenceif the pack are getting done over.granted some coaches tend to go for size and do in effect play a prop at 13 but i still like to see out n out 13s.(saying its a postion my lad played hell of alot of rugby in so bit bias)

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 9:39 pm  

A former task of a loose forward was to break quickly from the scrum and nail the attacking scrum half or stand off, but as the nature of the scrum has changed greatly, and disappeared totally last season, this role has diminished somewhat.
By the way, forgive my ignorance but is the forthcoming season also going to be scrumless. I don't recall seeing anything in writing re this.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:06 pm  

Redscat wrote:

A former task of a loose forward was to break quickly from the scrum and nail the attacking scrum half or stand off, but as the nature of the scrum has changed greatly, and disappeared totally last season, this role has diminished somewhat.
By the way, forgive my ignorance but is the forthcoming season also going to be scrumless. I don't recall seeing anything in writing re this.

The decision regarding scrums has been deferred until later this month.

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:35 pm  

phe13 wrote:

The decision regarding scrums has been deferred until later this month.

Cheers phe. Just seen it announced as deferred until this month on BBC Sports page.

[PopTart]

Re: A season for real optimism : Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:39 pm  

Redscat wrote:

A former task of a loose forward was to break quickly from the scrum and nail the attacking scrum half or stand off, but as the nature of the scrum has changed greatly, and disappeared totally last season, this role has diminished somewhat.
By the way, forgive my ignorance but is the forthcoming season also going to be scrumless. I don't recall seeing anything in writing re this.

That unfortunately left the game when it was no longer required to push.
It meant the SR and 13 were already waiting for the 13 so a useless excercise.

I do like the 13 making the extra man though and picking and passing so the SH is further out. We need more scrum moves.