Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:28 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

Some interesting points on the comparison with ice hockey. I have a passing interest in the BBL, and it is tough for minority sports. The slump in interest in snooker is also cautionary. In the same way Ellery Hanley and Shaun Edwards are still probably more famous than any current British players (starter for 10, who is the most famous British RL player still playing?), Steve Davis, Jimmy White and Stephen Hendry likely remain the most famous snooker players.

I think a key first question is, what do we want? The mines and mills and manufacturing that RL was born into, and the culture associated with it, have largely gone. The memory of it, even, is passing. How much is RL ‘just’ a game and how much is it the places it came from, what they were then and what they are now? If we ended up only having professional teams in Leeds, Manchester, Cardiff, Newcastle, London, Sheffield, Birmingham, Paris, Perpignan and Toulouse, would we have saved RL? I’d argue partially, at best.

There’s a lot of change coming. Think about the way we watch television now compared with just 5 or 10 years ago. Sky aren’t lowballing SL especially - the value of sports TV rights isn’t what it was, because TV isn’t what it was. People aren’t watching stuff just because it is there, as much as in the past - there aren’t as many floating eyeballs to grab, it doesn’t matter how good your marketing is. Not a reason not to try, but we shouldn’t think it’d be easy even if the RFL or SL bosses were great at their jobs.

There's even more of a motivation to get into paid/salaried sport than there was in the days of the mills/pits and trawler work (nd associated industries)
Some obviously see sport as an 'out', an alternate away from other avenues to earn money, avoiding working in the equivalent mills/pits/fishing vessel.
The 'culture' of what, comraderie of those whom worked together, yes there was an element of that, but rich owners of teams soon figured out they could earn more miney by buying the better players from other teams. What Wigan did in the 80s/90s was no different to what they and other clubs did at other times.

As to where we have teams, if that keeps the financial lure for (predominantly) young men to want to play, that there is a certain prestige in being good at something, then that 'elite' level can be a catalyst for teams elsewhere IF there is an honest investment from the monies made and time/effort put in from these elite clubs including through the players not just in the communities where the teams are located but elsewhere. This is why having the Cumbria connection and that which other teams have is a part of that connectivity.

In some ways playiing RL needs to be seen as aspirational, not just from a monetary POV, but that it's seen as a lifestyle that works as part of bettering communities, making people happy, healthier and making closer bonds, sometimes to those that might ordinarily be excluded from other parts of society, being inclusive is massive, it helps those that can be pushed to the periphery, and from that it makes the game/sport more popular, having that appeal that it offers holistic benefits is undervalued.

Currently it's survival, and whilst the RFL is still the adminstrative and rulers of the sport and chairmen continue to fail to come to agreeances, that status quo will continue. The latter is one of the primary reasons why spreading the sport further afield in the 40/50s/60s failed, this insular notion that popularity beyond would diminish their income and success, which in turn actually helped put a nail in the coffin regards rugby union being the more popular sport and the situation the sport finds itself in, IMO it wouldn't be as dire if the sport was more national, IMHO I think that ship sailed a long, long time ago.

Does that mean we should sit back and give up, no, but it makes the job a heck of a lot harder and much longer timescale to improve things.

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:54 pm  

BumpyMcbump wrote:

There's even more of a motivation to get into paid/salaried sport than there was in the days of the mills/pits and trawler work (nd associated industries)
Some obviously see sport as an 'out', an alternate away from other avenues to earn money, avoiding working in the equivalent mills/pits/fishing vessel.
The 'culture' of what, comraderie of those whom worked together, yes there was an element of that, but rich owners of teams soon figured out they could earn more miney by buying the better players from other teams. What Wigan did in the 80s/90s was no different to what they and other clubs did at other times.

As to where we have teams, if that keeps the financial lure for (predominantly) young men to want to play, that there is a certain prestige in being good at something, then that 'elite' level can be a catalyst for teams elsewhere IF there is an honest investment from the monies made and time/effort put in from these elite clubs including through the players not just in the communities where the teams are located but elsewhere. This is why having the Cumbria connection and that which other teams have is a part of that connectivity.

In some ways playiing RL needs to be seen as aspirational, not just from a monetary POV, but that it's seen as a lifestyle that works as part of bettering communities, making people happy, healthier and making closer bonds, sometimes to those that might ordinarily be excluded from other parts of society, being inclusive is massive, it helps those that can be pushed to the periphery, and from that it makes the game/sport more popular, having that appeal that it offers holistic benefits is undervalued.

Currently it's survival, and whilst the RFL is still the adminstrative and rulers of the sport and chairmen continue to fail to come to agreeances, that status quo will continue. The latter is one of the primary reasons why spreading the sport further afield in the 40/50s/60s failed, this insular notion that popularity beyond would diminish their income and success, which in turn actually helped put a nail in the coffin regards rugby union being the more popular sport and the situation the sport finds itself in, IMO it wouldn't be as dire if the sport was more national, IMHO I think that ship sailed a long, long time ago.

Does that mean we should sit back and give up, no, but it makes the job a heck of a lot harder and much longer timescale to improve things.

You make a good point about the aspirational career. The salary cap has helped keep the league competitive (but crucially only 4 teams have ever won it and Bradford are currently out of the picture) and a downside to that has been starting salaries for young players has remained low and with a short career they need higher salaries than average. We are no where near Football where young players can be set for life after a couple of years (which also has its downsides of course)

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:44 pm  

UllFC wrote:

You make a good point about the aspirational career. The salary cap has helped keep the league competitive (but crucially only 4 teams have ever won it and Bradford are currently out of the picture) and a downside to that has been starting salaries for young players has remained low and with a short career they need higher salaries than average. We are no where near Football where young players can be set for life after a couple of years (which also has its downsides of course)

The insanity of the money at the top end of football has many downsides, tax avoidance is one of them both at club and player level which has a knock on effect to the public purse (as do other tax dodging types).
Football is insideous, it's grown to a oint that it actually harms society because of the wealth creation for a few at the cost to most others in one way or another.

Anyway, I understand the lower salary aspect that could be seen as problematic in RL circles, however the encouragement to learn other skills should become the norm for semi/fully professional clubs, not necessarily from a scholarly POV, vocational qualifications are far too often ignored (as we see in schools all the time)

You can't force players to do this of course, but recognising that for some players they are not going to be big earners and how to help them down other avenues is important. Additionally I think there could be a voluntary salary sacrifice for clubs biggest earners and that be invested in community RL projects, if they are bonefide registered charities then that salary sacrifice is non taxable.
Players earning the bigger salaries should see it, if they are to do this, that it is part of the bigger picture of community and well being of the people that we live amongst and ultimately help pay their (players) wages. Earning respect and being a positive role model can give you far more than 'money', but that's a different discussion.

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:02 pm  

Spot on, football is insidious. Players invariably have been in teams systems from a very early age, and know nothing else than being a footballer. Many probably earn more than a lot of Super League players, before being even getting near first team football.

Football is just an unstoppable juggernaut. We’re competing for corporate money with not just football, but women’s football. It’s a battle we won’t win. There’s no real kudos from sponsoring a mainly Northern, working class, sport for many companies now.

Just on APs original piece, do you think it was also done in the hope it may smoke out some additional help / investment for the club?

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:11 am  

Mild Rover wrote:

Some interesting points on the comparison with ice hockey. I have a passing interest in the BBL, and it is tough for minority sports. The slump in interest in snooker is also cautionary. In the same way Ellery Hanley and Shaun Edwards are still probably more famous than any current British players (starter for 10, who is the most famous British RL player still playing?), Steve Davis, Jimmy White and Stephen Hendry likely remain the most famous snooker players.

I think a key first question is, what do we want? The mines and mills and manufacturing that RL was born into, and the culture associated with it, have largely gone. The memory of it, even, is passing. How much is RL ‘just’ a game and how much is it the places it came from, what they were then and what they are now? If we ended up only having professional teams in Leeds, Manchester, Cardiff, Newcastle, London, Sheffield, Birmingham, Paris, Perpignan and Toulouse, would we have saved RL? I’d argue partially, at best.

There’s a lot of change coming. Think about the way we watch television now compared with just 5 or 10 years ago. Sky aren’t lowballing SL especially - the value of sports TV rights isn’t what it was, because TV isn’t what it was. People aren’t watching stuff just because it is there, as much as in the past - there aren’t as many floating eyeballs to grab, it doesn’t matter how good your marketing is. Not a reason not to try, but we shouldn’t think it’d be easy even if the RFL or SL bosses were great at their jobs.

I think sports in general aren't near as popular as they were 20/30 years ago

Due to more things able to do in today's world look how obsessed people are with things like ( smart phones, ipads, Netflix, facebook, YouTube etc ) none of that was even around in early 2,000s!

Even sports like boxing how many boxers can people name today apart from Joshua and fury not many

Even Harry kane on pointless only scored 38 out of 100 when his face appeared on a round that's a guy who was top scorer at last world cup!

[Mild Rover]

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:19 am  

Irregular Hoops wrote:

Spot on, football is insidious. Players invariably have been in teams systems from a very early age, and know nothing else than being a footballer. Many probably earn more than a lot of Super League players, before being even getting near first team football.

Football is just an unstoppable juggernaut. We’re competing for corporate money with not just football, but women’s football. It’s a battle we won’t win. There’s no real kudos from sponsoring a mainly Northern, working class, sport for many companies now.

Just on APs original piece, do you think it was also done in the hope it may smoke out some additional help / investment for the club?

Sponsorship is partly about kudos and profile, and community for local sponsors. The other element is return on investment and RL fans are not perceived as having much disposable income, so premium brands don’t consider us. The general economic head winds, going back to the financial crisis 13 years ago have made growth very difficult.

On AP’s quotes, certainly he is advertising his openness to investment or even a buyer. If they don’t happen, then he might be preparing the ground for necessary-to-survive cost cutting.

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:28 am  

I think the fact one of our more prominent sponsors is for mushy peas tells you all you need to know.

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:15 am  

Irregular Hoops wrote:

Spot on, football is insidious. Players invariably have been in teams systems from a very early age, and know nothing else than being a footballer. Many probably earn more than a lot of Super League players, before being even getting near first team football.

Football is just an unstoppable juggernaut. We’re competing for corporate money with not just football, but women’s football. It’s a battle we won’t win. There’s no real kudos from sponsoring a mainly Northern, working class, sport for many companies now.

Just on APs original piece, do you think it was also done in the hope it may smoke out some additional help / investment for the club?

I think AP is very clever, with a clear agenda, when he comes out with statements like this. See the story about what he told the VP's about the Allams, and how the council then came out with a statement as proof of that.

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:50 am  

Thetalentboy wrote:

I think sports in general aren't near as popular as they were 20/30 years ago

Due to more things able to do in today's world look how obsessed people are with things like ( smart phones, ipads, Netflix, facebook, YouTube etc ) none of that was even around in early 2,000s!

Even sports like boxing how many boxers can people name today apart from Joshua and fury not many

Even Harry kane on pointless only scored 38 out of 100 when his face appeared on a round that's a guy who was top scorer at last world cup!

Agree and disagree. Other sports all have flagship events that generate big media attention. Wimbledon, British Grand Prix, Euros & World Cup, 6Nations etc. RL's equivalent was the Challenge Cup final but that has declined since the move to August and the launch of the Magic Weekend and decline of 'coach trips' from working man's clubs and pubs. The Grand Final is a successful event but TV audience will always be limited behind SKY's paywall. The RL World Cup is a massive chance for attention and I cross my fingers it will take place on time as for once the setup and organisation has been great so far.

Other sports have invested heavily to create events, most notably American Football. I don't remember anyone even mentioning the Super Bowl when I was young, but they've now ingrained it in the UK sport calender, and arranged London based league games around it. The NFL have got it right that the public want big hyped up events in big stadiums. RL often goes for the approach of 'whats the cheapest stadium we can find?' like the farce of holding the cup Semis at Leigh the other week.

Re: Pearson interview on club finances and future : Tue Jun 29, 2021 3:40 pm  

Irregular Hoops wrote:

I think the fact one of our more prominent sponsors is for mushy peas tells you all you need to know.

I actually don't have a problem with that, the parent company Premier foods is a near billion pound operation and has its headquarters in St.Albans.
Far better than gambling and other dodgy concerns, it's oft certain types that seems to drag down some sponsorship brands because of their pre-concieved ideas as to what it represents.