Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:25 am  

fun time frankie wrote:

I agree with Sandra regarding the wire game it wasn't that we were totally outplayed it was more our own undoing we were still in the game with about 20 mins to go we've had worse starts to the season I think it's magnified also by Hull looking very good in there opening games but going back a year we totally outplayed Hull with virtually the same team (I'm just using Hull as an example of a time when we were playing well )

You state we were still in the game but was that down to wire bombing chances as much as us defending well. The general consensus was that on another day wire could have racked up 60+

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:23 am  

barham red wrote:

You state we were still in the game but was that down to wire bombing chances as much as us defending well. The general consensus was that on another day wire could have racked up 60+

Yeah and on another day it could have been 20-18 Warrington bombed a lot of chances which last time I checked don't count for anything and we dropped a lot of ball in our own 20 I thought we defended well all be it our own fault as we put ourselves under pressure but the final score flattered wire imo

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:06 pm  

(^ on the game) … I thought Warrington were guilty of forcing things rather than bombing chances. Our line defence was actually working fairly well. Sliding across, seemingly allowing them over the line with bodies under the ball/arm when necessary etc. Given the huge amount of territorial advantage they had, I think they got impatient and frustrated by not having 5 or so scores on the board in the first half. This was good from us. The bad, was the pressure all stemmed from our own basic unforced errors, numerous penalties, and a total inability to make any meaningful yards forward.
You could argue the game turned on 2 garbage calls from the touch judges, but I never thought we really looked likely to get anything from the game. There was a sense of inevitability that as the game wore on, the score would reach the 30-40 region. Last year we had an exciting attack, we may still have that – but we’ve looked rather toothless so far.

Like most MRover thread’s I zoned out and lost the point in the detail … was it rallying call of scepticism vs the recent excessive pessimism?

[Mild Rover]

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:23 pm  

Pickering Red wrote:

I view it as constructive and perceptive criticism in the absence of a formal face to face club to fans forum, regarding on field matters.

That, I'm all for. Some stuff seems IMO, to be too determinedly negative. The reality is likely more nuanced than some are presenting it.

At least one-eye optimism gives us (probably false) hope. Negativity for its own sake makes no sense to me.

I admit that we're in the poop a bit, but I don't think picking it up and chucking at the board, managers, coaches or players to the degree that some are is justified. They're absolutely entitled if that is their view, but personally, I don't agree with some of the criticism.

Sandro II Terrorista wrote:

I would much rather us lose an Allgood and develop an attractive player pathway for kids, wherever they're from.

Are those necessarily equivalent costs? On the other hand, do they have to be alternatives - can an attractive that is affordable and offers value to the club be built? I dunno. It's easy to select an antipodean whose contribution has been limited, but we've had plenty of value from Down Under too. And you still need somebody to fill that place in the squad who'd need paying a chunk of whatever Allgood is on.

barham red wrote:

Slightly off track but as you mentioned it in your opening post I'll bring up the vanity statement Rob C mentioned.

He said him and Hudge were driven by vanity in the first 5 years, sorry but I don't understand. This is what I see
We were obviously up to cap, apparently we still are (ish),
We had a high number of overseas, we still have
We didn't pay transfers then, i think we have this year albeit small a one
We were defensively dodgy but good in attack, seems fimailar
I assume our targets are to finish up the league and back then we improved year on year and finished 4th.

Now I understand we need to improve off the field and if we were cutting costs to do so I could understand the drop in quality, similar with youth if we were blooding a lot of kids to cut the O/S contingent then again I could accept that but what I don't get is why IF we are planning on running full cap then why is having a good team classed as a vanity thing?

am i missing something???

I've often felt NH and RC understate or undervalue what they achieved back then. Perhaps it wasn't sustainable - referencing spending against the cap, has the potential to be a little misleading IMO, and I suspect they've been trying to do similar for less since the end of the Morgan era, and it's proved to be difficult. A concern relating to my second possible goal of the plan is that a sustainable model may not be achievable in an environment where some clubs are money-pit vanity projects and others have bigger fanbases. The alternative to trying to do it is giving up though, so I'm happy to 'give' them another 5 years. Good of me, I know.

Jake the Peg wrote:

If you have this magical 5 year plan I fail to see why it can't be shared with the fans. Surely any goals and objectives rovers have will be broadly similar to every other club in the league so why the big secret? Obviously there may be some commercially sensitive stuff in there but that can be left out or glossed over but some headline objectives such as improvement in facilities, where they see you capable of consistently being league position wise, external investment requirements, squad make up etc. At least if you understood what they're trying to achieve and how then you'll put up with some short term pain on the journey. The current situation seems like borlox to me and is alienating fans more than bringing them closer to your club.

Maybe they're just worried it will be a damp squib like hudge's 5 year plan of survival, consolidation, challenging when you first entered SL

I broadly agree and I guess my OP abhors the vacuum. I guess they're concerned it could become a stick to beat them with when we hit bumps. For that reason I wouldn't expect detail, but a general vision or philosophy with caveats about being flexible couldn't hurt IMO.

The 'survive, consolidate, challenge' plan was clear and ultimately had the glorious virtue of succeeding, or at very least exceeding most expectations. I wouldn't see that as a damp squib at all. 'Building for future' was coherent in conception, for all that it unravelled and with hindsight could be called a damp squib. The next plan might stall too, but I think it only reasonable to entertain the possibility it might work out. Darkest before the dawn and all that, and look at the change in mood for Hull fans since a few months ago. But yeah, 'we have a 5-year plan' begs more questions than it answers.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:27 pm  

☺East-Sard☺ wrote:

.

Like most MRover thread’s I zoned out and lost the point in the detail … was it rallying call of scepticism vs the recent excessive pessimism?

I do go on, don't I?

But yes, basically.

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:27 pm  

Ok so they have a 5 year plan, what is it if they honestly believe that they will produce enough local lads to compete in the Superleague they are on cloud 9, for how many over the past say 10 years have they had make the grade , what is classed as making the grade?
Do they have to be internationals or just regular first teamers?
I have tried to come up with a list that both Hull Clubs have produced they are as follows

1 Shaul and he has just really started
2 Lynham but he was from York not Local,
3. Hall but not retained, Salter in and out, Welham not retained
4. Yearman International
5. No real contenders
6. Richard Horne now retired, Cook now retired, Abdul can't get in
7 none
8 Taylor, Wheeldon not retained by either club
9 Houghton
10 Green just really getting in at Rovers Bawden in and out at FC
11 Cox let go and was never regular first teamer
12 Graham Horne has been regular first teamer at all his clubs
13 No real contenders

I have struggled to come up with 13 names that you could say would be good enough to compete in the Superleague if they were all,together at one club
They are kidding themselves if Motu Toni had not been at Hull FC then they might have struggled this year for they have recruited well and I believe even after 2 games they could and should finish top 4 if not better.
Leeds is mentioned about having a good accadamy but they have hell of a catchment area to pick from Hull as an area does not. We do not produce enough good young players it's ok saying they do if they do why combine them, to save money, bull, That is why FC have started a reserve grade so why haven't Rovers a Pearson con trick in my mind for if any kid is going to make it before they are 19 they will go to FC for they will be able to play another 4 years with a better chance of actually learning from older team mates. Kids now a days do not serve an apprenticeship
I look forward to your response and if you can think of any others please add them to list

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:23 pm  

easthull4 wrote:

Ok so they have a 5 year plan, what is it if they honestly believe that they will produce enough local lads to compete in the Superleague they are on cloud 9, for how many over the past say 10 years have they had make the grade , what is classed as making the grade?
Do they have to be internationals or just regular first teamers?
I have tried to come up with a list that both Hull Clubs have produced they are as follows

1 Shaul and he has just really started
2 Lynham but he was from York not Local,
3. Hall but not retained, Salter in and out, Welham not retained - to be fair he had 10 years of first team
4. Yearman International
5. No real contenders Briscoe (like Lineham not from here but was in FC academy)
6. Richard Horne now retired, Cook now retired, Abdul can't get in
7 none
8 Taylor, Wheeldon not retained by either club
9 Houghton Hodgson, Tommy Lee, Washbrook
10 Green just really getting in at Rovers Bawden in and out at FC
11 Cox let go and was never regular first teamer
12 Graham Horne has been regular first teamer at all his clubs Mariano has played a lot of games
13 No real contenders

I have struggled to come up with 13 names that you could say would be good enough to compete in the Superleague if they were all,together at one club
They are kidding themselves if Motu Toni had not been at Hull FC then they might have struggled this year for they have recruited well and I believe even after 2 games they could and should finish top 4 if not better.
Leeds is mentioned about having a good accadamy but they have hell of a catchment area to pick from Hull as an area does not. We do not produce enough good young players it's ok saying they do if they do why combine them, to save money, bull, That is why FC have started a reserve grade so why haven't Rovers a Pearson con trick in my mind for if any kid is going to make it before they are 19 they will go to FC for they will be able to play another 4 years with a better chance of actually learning from older team mates. Kids now a days do not serve an apprenticeship
I look forward to your response and if you can think of any others please add them to list

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:59 pm  

[quote="barham red"][/quote]
Thanks for additions forgot about those names

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:48 pm  

easthull4 wrote:

Thanks for additions forgot about those names

I forgot Wilkin as well, he's done alright for himself..

Re: Excessive pessimism : Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:03 pm  

Jake the Peg wrote:

Amended for accuracy

Your doing rather well and look good. I hope you win every game up to the Easter Derby. You'll be odds on and the queue for the zeebrugge end will be back to the Humber bridge. But if we upset the odds and spring a surprise with the hotchpotch we have then by God prepare for an onslaught on your board. Peace out.