Re: Saints : Sat May 04, 2019 11:21 pm  

Beverley red wrote:

True, but as all clubs are on the same maximum cap it boils down to the apparent fact that the best players go to the best performing clubs to win trophy’s & make the most out of a short career. Until we are considered a big club by the players & their agents we will struggle to get the best or attract the youngsters to commit to us.

I don't want to come across as patronising and that will be hard, but the way round the cap is to create your own players. The fact that all clubs have the same amount of money to spend is largely irrelevant. You have to create players from within your own clubs structure who are good enough to play at super league level, not join forces with another club to do this. Hull produce some of the best players at junior level, tap into this and create a team .

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 7:58 am  

St. Etrigan wrote:

I don't want to come across as patronising and that will be hard, but the way round the cap is to create your own players. The fact that all clubs have the same amount of money to spend is largely irrelevant. You have to create players from within your own clubs structure who are good enough to play at super league level, not join forces with another club to do this. Hull produce some of the best players at junior level, tap into this and create a team .

Read what I posted carefully, I said the reason we as a club don’t get the pick of the best players is that they don’t see us a a good choice! It has nothing to do with money. As for producing our own we have, despite the club struggling back from the brink of extinction. Like it or not our rivals across the river have a larger fan base & a lot of youngsters choose them first or are fans. Even when we find a gem we can’t hold them, Scot Taylor, Jon Wilkin are the best example. We just have to be patient & keep trying.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 8:55 am  

St. Etrigan wrote:

I don't want to come across as patronising and that will be hard, but the way round the cap is to create your own players. The fact that all clubs have the same amount of money to spend is largely irrelevant. You have to create players from within your own clubs structure who are good enough to play at super league level, not join forces with another club to do this. Hull produce some of the best players at junior level, tap into this and create a team .

I think this is both true and somewhat misleading.

First off, an acknowledgement that our youth development has yielded disappointingly little in recent years. The criticism we received in our first few years in SL was unfair, given our standing start. However, at this point it is clear something was wrong. Whether that was a talent pool issue or a system issue, i don’t know. Probably a bit of both, I imagine.

I don’t want to come across as demeaning the achievements of St Helens, Leeds and Wigan, and that will be hard. However, those associated with those clubs like to emphasise the value of their youth development, and imo downplay the value of incumbency as top clubs and their bigger rugby budgets. The last is a more relevant measure than the cap and is a big part of the answer to the question that starts ‘if all clubs are spending the same on salaries...’ For most people it is easier to believe nice things, so there is greater focus on the building blocks of success that are considered virtuous.

We started emphasising bringing through young players in 2012, and that was when we started to go backwards on the pitch. The problem was that we were doing it as part of an effort to build a sustainable business more than to build a successful team, with predictable consequences. Jamie Peacock tried to reboot a gradualist bottom-up approach to team building in 2016. And because it was Jamie Peacock and he was saying something nice, many found it plausible - briefly.

Developing more players would help us, undoubtedly. But when I look for patronising advice, it is from the Calder area - from people associated with teams that are striving to achieve as much as they feasibly can, rather than fannying about trying to indulge somebody else’s fairytale. I know all that sounds bitter, but truly we have that right on this subject.

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 9:25 am  

St. Etrigan wrote:

I don't want to come across as patronising and that will be hard, but the way round the cap is to create your own players. The fact that all clubs have the same amount of money to spend is largely irrelevant. You have to create players from within your own clubs structure who are good enough to play at super league level, not join forces with another club to do this. Hull produce some of the best players at junior level, tap into this and create a team .

I think that was the idea behind the joint academy, that both Hull clubs would have the pick of the local talent but its probably taking longer than anticapated though.

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 10:51 am  

Bringing the youth through is the answer but that’s easier said than done it’s no coincidence that the most successful teams Wigan Saints and Leeds have brought through loads of players and seemingly integrate a couple each season with ease although that is made easier when your a top side

[Mild Rover]

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 12:21 pm  

fun time frankie wrote:

Bringing the youth through is the answer but that’s easier said than done it’s no coincidence that the most successful teams Wigan Saints and Leeds have brought through loads of players and seemingly integrate a couple each season with ease although that is made easier when your a top side

It’s not a coincidence that they’re the wealthiest clubs.

I’d love us to have their academies and i’d love us to have their budgets. If it came down to a choice, then it’d be their budgets - and by a LONG distance. But it isn’t and we have neither. So the examples i’d look at would be Cas (remember when they were cack but used to get a pat on the head for bringing through Shenton, Westerman, Richard Owen, Daryl Clark, Joe Arundel and the like?) and Wakefield who were in a bigger hole a few years ago than we are now.

We all see the world and rugby league differently. While i’m not a psychopath, when I did psychometric test a while back, the examples of famous people with the same personality type as he included Vladimir Putin. It’s a curse in a couple of ways.

[Mild Rover]

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 4:03 pm  

26-42.

It’s a defeat, it was 8 tries to 4 and we were up 12-0 early so there may have been an element of them starting slowly, so i’m not getting carried away.
However, with a pack missing four props, plus Lannon, Tomkins and Greenwood, that seems creditable imo. It’s baby steps but hopefully something to build on.

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 4:10 pm  

Mild Rover wrote:

26-42.

It’s a defeat, it was 8 tries to 4 and we were up 12-0 early so there may have been an element of them starting slowly, so i’m not getting carried away.
However, with a pack missing four props, plus Lannon, Tomkins and Greenwood, that seems creditable imo. It’s baby steps but hopefully something to build on.

A decent effort today,plenty of effort and in the end i feel the score flattered saints.If we can show the same effort and spirit against some of the lesser teams we should be ok.

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 4:31 pm  

I think the score line flattered Saints we gave it a real good dig today and they got a couple of tries off us trying to force something late on the difference for me is when they brought Walmsley and Roby back on it turned the game for me

Re: Saints : Sun May 05, 2019 4:33 pm  

Far better effort, With players due back hopefully can do the full 80. Few need releasing though come end of the season.