FORUMS FORUMS






RLFANS.COM
Celebrating
25 years service to
the Rugby League
Community!

   WWW.RLFANS.COM • View topic - Winning Super League and winning the Grand Final...
Wigg'n 
RankPostsTeam
International Star7524
JoinedServiceReputation
May 11 201113 years189th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
24th Mar 24 17:5018th Feb 24 17:20LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

IR80 wrote:
When whomever (probably Sainta) top the league are they not SL winners?
When whomever wins the Grand Final (knock out rugby so can't really call it) are they not Grannd Final Winners.

Are they not different things?


Mate it’s the 21st year of the Super League grand final concept, surely you’ve figured it out by now.
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach11412No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 12 201014 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
23rd Feb 21 21:5628th Jul 19 00:21LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas.
Signature
"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection."

23/08/2014

Judder Man wrote:
You could probably think about it in another way:

Stage 1 is the regular season most of it played on an home and away basis, obviously the top team becomes the League Leaders for that stage and are rewarded for it.

Stage 2 becomes the best of the best on a knock out basis and only the top 5 best teams are allowed to compete for the Grand Final appearance, winners are Superleague Champions.

In my opinion the League Leaders should have more value because its played over 29 games, the Superleague Champions only need to win at the most 3 knockout games. But SKY seem to overvalue the 3 knockout games against the 29 regular games because they control the competition format through the RFL.


To be fair they don’t just have to win 3 games though because they need to win enough to be in the top 5 to begin with. Theirs even a potential situation where the top two could finish level on points and only separated by points difference, if 2nd place then wins the GF then they would’ve won more games over the season.

Don’t see the problem anyway as a lot of sports do it nowadays even though people carry on like it’s just us. The current Cricket World Cup they all play each once so shouldn’t just first place win outright instead of top 4 then going into SF’s? Rod Studd whines about playoffs and says it should be first past the post in SL yet bigs up the Premier League of Darts where the top 4 go in SF’s instead of just 1st place winning.
Him 
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Board Member14970No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jun 19 200222 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
16th Nov 21 22:467th Nov 21 09:30LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Campaigning for a deep attacking line

ThePrinter wrote:
To be fair they don’t just have to win 3 games though because they need to win enough to be in the top 5 to begin with. Theirs even a potential situation where the top two could finish level on points and only separated by points difference, if 2nd place then wins the GF then they would’ve won more games over the season.

Don’t see the problem anyway as a lot of sports do it nowadays even though people carry on like it’s just us. The current Cricket World Cup they all play each once so shouldn’t just first place win outright instead of top 4 then going into SF’s? Rod Studd whines about playoffs and says it should be first past the post in SL yet bigs up the Premier League of Darts where the top 4 go in SF’s instead of just 1st place winning.

Not to mention it’s RL tradition to have a final deciding the champion rather than a straight league system.
RankPostsTeam
Club Captain973No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 31 20159 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
29th Apr 20 09:319th Mar 20 19:45LINK
Milestone Posts
500
1000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Signature
Wire Quin at work

Someday wrote:
To be honest wining the league is the hardest thing winning the grand final does not take has many games has the league


I'm not sure that's true. Speaking with Brian McDermott his philosophy was to get his team playing well by Sept Oct and doing enough to qualify.

Saints last year blasted teams by playing the same strongest team week in week out and rightly won the league. Due to poor planning they didn't win the GF. Hes changed his approach this season that's for sure
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach11412No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 12 201014 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
23rd Feb 21 21:5628th Jul 19 00:21LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas.
Signature
"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection."

23/08/2014

Someday wrote:
To be honest wining the league is the hardest thing winning the grand final does not take has many games has the league


If the Grand Final isn’t as hard to win then why have only 2 teams won it in 11 of the last 12 years compared to several different LLS winners?
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach6765No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 29 200716 years223rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
24th Mar 24 14:338th Jan 24 08:24LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Now in Enemy Country
Signature
The new young dynasty of super saints is coming to a ground near you.
Welsby-Dodd-Simms-Eaves-Rizzelli, not Eastmond...the future is coming.

ThePrinter wrote:
If the Grand Final isn’t as hard to win then why have only 2 teams won it in 11 of the last 12 years compared to several different LLS winners?


Because you are Cherry Picking why 11 out of the last 12 years to remove a further team.

Wigan-Saints-Leeds have won the LLS and Grand Final this decade, newcomers Warrington, Huddersfield and Castleford have found it very difficult to keep form right up to the end of the season. My own theory is that if a club hits league leaders spot early in the season they have a natural winning mentality to stay there whilst at the same time quite a few clubs try to raise their game to knock the leaders off their perch.

If a team puts in a lot of effort to finish top of the league its takes a lot more mental pressure to raise their game for the play offs and you really need quite a few big game experienced individuals in the team to do that.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Club Coach17871
JoinedServiceReputation
Apr 24 201113 years46th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
27th Mar 24 16:1128th Mar 24 10:32LINK
Milestone Posts
15000
20000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530

Judder Man wrote:
Because you are Cherry Picking why 11 out of the last 12 years to remove a further team.

Wigan-Saints-Leeds have won the LLS and Grand Final this decade, newcomers Warrington, Huddersfield and Castleford have found it very difficult to keep form right up to the end of the season. My own theory is that if a club hits league leaders spot early in the season they have a natural winning mentality to stay there whilst at the same time quite a few clubs try to raise their game to knock the leaders off their perch.

If a team puts in a lot of effort to finish top of the league its takes a lot more mental pressure to raise their game for the play offs and you really need quite a few big game experienced individuals in the team to do that.


I think that the difference is far more fundamental that you are stating.
For clubs such as Huddersfield and Castleford, who are not used to winning silverware (something that my team is still dreaming of in the SL era), they have focused on finishing top of the league, rather than winning the main prize and to some extent, perhaps thinking that finishing top was "job done".
If you compare this to the way that say Leeds and Wigan went about their business, their focus, even before the start of the regular season, was on how to reach and win the GF. Different preparation and different mentality.
Saints appear to have learnt from their "failings" of last season but, when it comes to the play offs, those that have been there before and won the GF are at a huge advantage over the newbies.
THe same also applies to the latter stages of the Challenge Cup and generally, it is the sides with recentish cup success that will win the Final, Catalan being a notable exception to that rule, although McNamara has plenty of "big game" experience, which will have helped.
Leeds, under McDermott, were excellent at peaking for the play offs but, more importantly, having the belief that they would win, something that you have to credit McDermott with.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach6765No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Oct 29 200716 years223rd
OnlineLast PostLast Page
24th Mar 24 14:338th Jan 24 08:24LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Now in Enemy Country
Signature
The new young dynasty of super saints is coming to a ground near you.
Welsby-Dodd-Simms-Eaves-Rizzelli, not Eastmond...the future is coming.

wrencat1873 wrote:
I think that the difference is far more fundamental that you are stating.
For clubs such as Huddersfield and Castleford, who are not used to winning silverware (something that my team is still dreaming of in the SL era), they have focused on finishing top of the league, rather than winning the main prize and to some extent, perhaps thinking that finishing top was "job done".
If you compare this to the way that say Leeds and Wigan went about their business, their focus, even before the start of the regular season, was on how to reach and win the GF. Different preparation and different mentality.
Saints appear to have learnt from their "failings" of last season but, when it comes to the play offs, those that have been there before and won the GF are at a huge advantage over the newbies.
THe same also applies to the latter stages of the Challenge Cup and generally, it is the sides with recentish cup success that will win the Final, Catalan being a notable exception to that rule, although McNamara has plenty of "big game" experience, which will have helped.
Leeds, under McDermott, were excellent at peaking for the play offs but, more importantly, having the belief that they would win, something that you have to credit McDermott with.


The mentality of Leeds + Wigan when they were a better quality side was that it didn't really matter if they had a slow start in the league because they had the players to gradually lift themselves towards the end of the season. We have the likes of Warrington and Saints who are a bit different and really want to win games week in week out which is fair enough but I think they understand thats at risk of playing stale later.

Castleford, Hull and Wakefield perhaps are the victim of a much shallower quality squad depth and have been very unlucky with injuries for quite a few seasons now. Catalans suffer from the home/away inconsistency.

Saints have learnt a bit from last year by applying rotation in the playing squad but the club still has this belief they can win everything and don't target any particular trophy, its still a gamble and could come away with nothing but it won't be from the lack of trying. I suspect Warrington are similar and I don't think they are too far away from winning a Grand Final if they can keep their pivotal players in good shape.
RankPostsTeam
Player Coach11412No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Sep 12 201014 yearsN/A
OnlineLast PostLast Page
23rd Feb 21 21:5628th Jul 19 00:21LINK
Milestone Posts
10000
15000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Behind the picket fence on the grassy knoll in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, Texas.
Signature
"The Golden Generation finally has its Golden Fleece! They have Wembley Cup Final winners medals to add to their collection."

23/08/2014

People go on about rotation as if that’s the key but Leeds didn’t really rotate at all even in those 2011 & 2012 when we finished 5th. If anything because we started off slowly in the first half of those seasons and were around 7th/8th we had to keep picking our strongest 17 to climb up to 5th and one of the (many) issues certain fans had against McDermott was him picking the same guys and “flogging them” and on a number of occasions not even using all his subs. In 2011 we were constantly in tight games, from what I recall Warrington hadn’t had a close games in about 10/12 games prior to that very close quality semi final we beat them in.
User avatar
RankPostsTeam
International Star6848No
Team
Selected
JoinedServiceReputation
Jul 22 201212 years298th
OnlineLast PostLast Page
25th Feb 23 09:2610th Jul 21 23:11LINK
Milestone Posts
5000
10000
Milestone Years
0510 1520 2530
Location
Hill Valley
Signature
What you looking at?....Butt Head!!

Can we not just have this up as a sticky? Same thread every year although granted, a little earlier than usual.
PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 302 guests

REPLY

Subject: 
Message:
   
Please note using apple style emoji's can result in posting failures.
Use the FULL EDITOR to better format content or upload images, be notified of replies etc...

Return to The Virtual Terrace


RLFANS Recent Posts
FORUM
LAST
POST
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
0m
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Catalans Home
Douglas Blac
16
8m
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
Prince Buste
25
10m
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Deeeekos
3
15m
Smith - should he stay or should he go
RockNRolla
352
34m
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
42m
Saints a
Mark_P1973
22
52m
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
Recent
The Good Friday Derby Massacre
ComeOnYouUll
126
Recent
Game - Song Titles
Wanderer
34275
Recent
BORED The Band Name Game
Wanderer
55989
FORUM
LAST
VIEW
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
29s
Fevround 2
Wollo-Wollo-
89
31s
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
45s
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Deeeekos
3
46s
Saints a
Mark_P1973
22
1m
Smith out ASAP
Backwoodsman
138
1m
Other Championship Clubs
Trojan Horse
97
1m
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
1m
Rd 6 I Cas A
Rockinhorse
21
1m
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
2m
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
FORUM
NEW
TOPICS
TOPIC
POSTER
POSTS
TODAY
Stats article
Sir Gregory
5
TODAY
21 man Squads - Devils v Leopards
Deeeekos
3
TODAY
Squad for Catalan
Smiffy27
17
TODAY
The Wigan Way - New Podcast - Chairman Special
Jukesays
1
TODAY
Dons v Swinton Lions 30 June 2024
Wanderer
1
TODAY
Squad for Sheffield
AdamH
1
TODAY
London Away
Fartown58
1
TODAY
The Bulls away
terry silver
9
TODAY
The official Leon Hayes Thread
Smiffy27
18
TODAY
Saints a
Mark_P1973
22
TODAY
Leon Ruan signs on loan
Jemmo
2
TODAY
Wardle
Jo Jumbuck
3
TODAY
Huddersfield - Home
Fartown58
6
TODAY
Max Wood on loan to Bradford 2 weeks
rubber ducki
7
TODAY
Jake Wardle 5 Year deal
Zig
22
TODAY
No grade A for 2025 for Trinity
Prince Buste
25
TODAY
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangements
RLFANS News
1
TODAY
Rd 6 I Cas A
Rockinhorse
21
TODAY
WIRE YED Prediction Competition Catalans Home
Douglas Blac
16
TODAY
Spare Tickets Friday
post
4
TODAY
RL Podcast
AgbriggAmble
1
NEWS ITEMS
VIEWS
Cup Quarter Final TV Arrangeme..
501
2024 Challenge Cup Quarter Fin..
632
Easy Does It For The Dragons A..
554
Warrington Demolish London For..
663
Leigh Leopards Beat Plucky Fea..
708
Saints Triumph Over Disappoint..
687
Easy Win for the Wolves Over L..
934
Dragons Condemn Castleford To ..
906
Leigh Leopards Secure First Po..
1052
St Helens Tame The Rhinos To W..
1024
Wigan Warriors Come From Behin..
1076
Betfred Championship and Leagu..
1068
2024 Challenge Cup Sixth Round..
3839
Featherstone Win Extra Time Cu..
1189
Dragons Triumph Over Hull FC t..
1067
RLFANS Match Centre
Matches on TV
Table 'boards.stats_fixtures' doesn't exist