Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:30 am  

There is set to be a big overhaul at the end of the season, with some exciting players coming in to the club....but with potentially only 2 players playing on Saturday who will not be here next season, are our real issues being resolved for next season?

1. Jamie Shaul - For me, this is one of the biggest issues with our attacking structure. Every game, the ball is passed out the back to Shaul, and he stops, comes back inside, running behind his own men and then has to take the tackle. Shaul tends to run into the space that his centre and winger needs, he cannot straighten his line, to attract a defender and then give the pass. He cannot put his centre or winger over for a try - and if you look at our competition in SL, they all have a full back who can do this - Ratchford, Coote (or Welsby), Tomkins, Evalds, Matautia. It means we are losing a pivot. Other teams have 3, and we are working with 2. For me, I would be asking Connor, or even Tuimavave (some of his best games at NZ Warriors were at FB) to be training there for next season.

2. Connor Conundrum - for me, Connor will only ever be a decent 6, but he is an International centre. He has begged Radford for game time at 6, and due to Kelly's lack of fitness during the year, he has had plenty of chances. I don't think he has the mentality to play as a half. If something doesn't go right, he sulks. Compared to Hastings on Saturday, things didn't go well at times, but he focussed on the next play. If he is adamant he wants to be a 6, I would cash in.

3. Defensive Structure - I think most are beginning to see what we try to do in defence. We only rush out if the opposition are 15 metres or less from their line. If they are past that, then we wait for the attackers to come to us. This is giving sides a good 50+ metres per set, and allowing a decent kicking position, meaning we are coming off our own line a lot of the time. Now, whether that is to conserve energy in defence, I don't know, but it isn't working and is counter-productive, as you have to work harder to get off your own line. It also means that our wingers are trying to play the ball as quickly as possible to get the momentum of the set started, and they lose the ball at the play the ball!

4. Mentality - there seems to be no grit, and no steel to the current crop of players. To get into an arm wrestle, to fight lost causes, to put their body in the line, to make a big hit to raise the side. Players like Manu Ma'u will bring that, but little is known of Sao and Satae at this stage to know if these players can re-invigorate the squad.

5. Sneyd - I fight a battle all the time over this guy. At times he has won us games, but then you look at how Hastings played for Salford, and I wish we had a number 7 like that. He runs at the line, tells his forwards were to run (and has them RUN ON TO THE BALL!!), can kick, can pass, can defend. Now I know we won 2 challenge cups, and he got Lance Todd in both of them (don't know how in 2016 by the way!), but you look at what Hastings does, and Sneyd doesn't run at the line, he doesn't commit defenders, he is an appalling tackler (Hampshire went past him like he wasn't there last week) and he got thrown off like a school kid against Saturday. In relation to point 1 about Shaul, is he not able to be a pivot, because the passing inside him from Sneyd/Houghton not crisp and quick enough to take some defenders away?

Tactics - Most fans who have seen us play the last few seasons, can pretty much tell you how a set will go. Faraimo, Naulago and Carlos will have a run from DH, or 1 off the ruck. Drop off to a prop, then a drop off to Manu. Then a kick. If we are within 20 of the oppositions line it will be a crossfield kick. Then repeat. Next season we have a group of players who are known for offloading, Josh Jones is 3rd in SL, Ma'u, Sao and Satae all have great stats for offloading, and we all know what Fonua can do. We need to be encouraging this next season, and practising our 2nd phase structures. Currently, our players switch off before tackles are even complete! Shaul twice I counted, was too busy looking around at what was happening for the next play (which he wouldn't even be involved in) rather than focussing on our ball carrier getting an offload away, and was caught unaware both times!


This has probably turned into a bit of a rant, but I guess to conclude, we cannot just expect these new signings to come in and transform us into a SL winning side. There are many different facets of our game that need to change for us to get the best out of the players we will have in our squad next year

[Chris71]

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:15 am  

Wilde 3 wrote:

There is set to be a big overhaul at the end of the season, with some exciting players coming in to the club....but with potentially only 2 players playing on Saturday who will not be here next season, are our real issues being resolved for next season?

1. Jamie Shaul - For me, this is one of the biggest issues with our attacking structure. Every game, the ball is passed out the back to Shaul, and he stops, comes back inside, running behind his own men and then has to take the tackle. Shaul tends to run into the space that his centre and winger needs, he cannot straighten his line, to attract a defender and then give the pass. He cannot put his centre or winger over for a try - and if you look at our competition in SL, they all have a full back who can do this - Ratchford, Coote (or Welsby), Tomkins, Evalds, Matautia. It means we are losing a pivot. Other teams have 3, and we are working with 2. For me, I would be asking Connor, or even Tuimavave (some of his best games at NZ Warriors were at FB) to be training there for next season.

2. Connor Conundrum - for me, Connor will only ever be a decent 6, but he is an International centre. He has begged Radford for game time at 6, and due to Kelly's lack of fitness during the year, he has had plenty of chances. I don't think he has the mentality to play as a half. If something doesn't go right, he sulks. Compared to Hastings on Saturday, things didn't go well at times, but he focussed on the next play. If he is adamant he wants to be a 6, I would cash in.

3. Defensive Structure - I think most are beginning to see what we try to do in defence. We only rush out if the opposition are 15 metres or less from their line. If they are past that, then we wait for the attackers to come to us. This is giving sides a good 50+ metres per set, and allowing a decent kicking position, meaning we are coming off our own line a lot of the time. Now, whether that is to conserve energy in defence, I don't know, but it isn't working and is counter-productive, as you have to work harder to get off your own line. It also means that our wingers are trying to play the ball as quickly as possible to get the momentum of the set started, and they lose the ball at the play the ball!

4. Mentality - there seems to be no grit, and no steel to the current crop of players. To get into an arm wrestle, to fight lost causes, to put their body in the line, to make a big hit to raise the side. Players like Manu Ma'u will bring that, but little is known of Sao and Satae at this stage to know if these players can re-invigorate the squad.

5. Sneyd - I fight a battle all the time over this guy. At times he has won us games, but then you look at how Hastings played for Salford, and I wish we had a number 7 like that. He runs at the line, tells his forwards were to run (and has them RUN ON TO THE BALL!!), can kick, can pass, can defend. Now I know we won 2 challenge cups, and he got Lance Todd in both of them (don't know how in 2016 by the way!), but you look at what Hastings does, and Sneyd doesn't run at the line, he doesn't commit defenders, he is an appalling tackler (Hampshire went past him like he wasn't there last week) and he got thrown off like a school kid against Saturday. In relation to point 1 about Shaul, is he not able to be a pivot, because the passing inside him from Sneyd/Houghton not crisp and quick enough to take some defenders away?

Tactics - Most fans who have seen us play the last few seasons, can pretty much tell you how a set will go. Faraimo, Naulago and Carlos will have a run from DH, or 1 off the ruck. Drop off to a prop, then a drop off to Manu. Then a kick. If we are within 20 of the oppositions line it will be a crossfield kick. Then repeat. Next season we have a group of players who are known for offloading, Josh Jones is 3rd in SL, Ma'u, Sao and Satae all have great stats for offloading, and we all know what Fonua can do. We need to be encouraging this next season, and practising our 2nd phase structures. Currently, our players switch off before tackles are even complete! Shaul twice I counted, was too busy looking around at what was happening for the next play (which he wouldn't even be involved in) rather than focussing on our ball carrier getting an offload away, and was caught unaware both times!


This has probably turned into a bit of a rant, but I guess to conclude, we cannot just expect these new signings to come in and transform us into a SL winning side. There are many different facets of our game that need to change for us to get the best out of the players we will have in our squad next year

Can't really argue with the above and I've said similar myself in regards to concerns over next season as we don't seem to cure the issues that are blighting the performances especially in terms of us surrendering metres too easily to the opposition. This tactic means we end up under pressure near our line too often and then having to go the full length more often and our last play in the set being about the oppositions 40M line instead of being in the oppositions half with tackles to spare.

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:56 am  

Wilde 3 wrote:

There is set to be a big overhaul at the end of the season, with some exciting players coming in to the club....but with potentially only 2 players playing on Saturday who will not be here next season, are our real issues being resolved for next season?

1. Jamie Shaul - For me, this is one of the biggest issues with our attacking structure. Every game, the ball is passed out the back to Shaul, and he stops, comes back inside, running behind his own men and then has to take the tackle. Shaul tends to run into the space that his centre and winger needs, he cannot straighten his line, to attract a defender and then give the pass. He cannot put his centre or winger over for a try - and if you look at our competition in SL, they all have a full back who can do this - Ratchford, Coote (or Welsby), Tomkins, Evalds, Matautia. It means we are losing a pivot. Other teams have 3, and we are working with 2. For me, I would be asking Connor, or even Tuimavave (some of his best games at NZ Warriors were at FB) to be training there for next season.

2. Connor Conundrum - for me, Connor will only ever be a decent 6, but he is an International centre. He has begged Radford for game time at 6, and due to Kelly's lack of fitness during the year, he has had plenty of chances. I don't think he has the mentality to play as a half. If something doesn't go right, he sulks. Compared to Hastings on Saturday, things didn't go well at times, but he focussed on the next play. If he is adamant he wants to be a 6, I would cash in.

3. Defensive Structure - I think most are beginning to see what we try to do in defence. We only rush out if the opposition are 15 metres or less from their line. If they are past that, then we wait for the attackers to come to us. This is giving sides a good 50+ metres per set, and allowing a decent kicking position, meaning we are coming off our own line a lot of the time. Now, whether that is to conserve energy in defence, I don't know, but it isn't working and is counter-productive, as you have to work harder to get off your own line. It also means that our wingers are trying to play the ball as quickly as possible to get the momentum of the set started, and they lose the ball at the play the ball!

4. Mentality - there seems to be no grit, and no steel to the current crop of players. To get into an arm wrestle, to fight lost causes, to put their body in the line, to make a big hit to raise the side. Players like Manu Ma'u will bring that, but little is known of Sao and Satae at this stage to know if these players can re-invigorate the squad.

5. Sneyd - I fight a battle all the time over this guy. At times he has won us games, but then you look at how Hastings played for Salford, and I wish we had a number 7 like that. He runs at the line, tells his forwards were to run (and has them RUN ON TO THE BALL!!), can kick, can pass, can defend. Now I know we won 2 challenge cups, and he got Lance Todd in both of them (don't know how in 2016 by the way!), but you look at what Hastings does, and Sneyd doesn't run at the line, he doesn't commit defenders, he is an appalling tackler (Hampshire went past him like he wasn't there last week) and he got thrown off like a school kid against Saturday. In relation to point 1 about Shaul, is he not able to be a pivot, because the passing inside him from Sneyd/Houghton not crisp and quick enough to take some defenders away?

Tactics - Most fans who have seen us play the last few seasons, can pretty much tell you how a set will go. Faraimo, Naulago and Carlos will have a run from DH, or 1 off the ruck. Drop off to a prop, then a drop off to Manu. Then a kick. If we are within 20 of the oppositions line it will be a crossfield kick. Then repeat. Next season we have a group of players who are known for offloading, Josh Jones is 3rd in SL, Ma'u, Sao and Satae all have great stats for offloading, and we all know what Fonua can do. We need to be encouraging this next season, and practising our 2nd phase structures. Currently, our players switch off before tackles are even complete! Shaul twice I counted, was too busy looking around at what was happening for the next play (which he wouldn't even be involved in) rather than focussing on our ball carrier getting an offload away, and was caught unaware both times!


This has probably turned into a bit of a rant, but I guess to conclude, we cannot just expect these new signings to come in and transform us into a SL winning side. There are many different facets of our game that need to change for us to get the best out of the players we will have in our squad next year

Eloquently worded post, thoughtfully constructive, and whilst I may not agree with all of it, keep JC for me.

Do you think Radders can implement these necessary changes wilde3, or would you go for a change in direction at the top.

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:02 am  

Riderofthepalehorse wrote:

Eloquently worded post, thoughtfully constructive, and whilst I may not agree with all of it, keep JC for me.

Do you think Radders can implement these necessary changes wilde3, or would you go for a change in direction at the top.

I think that if we cannot get silverware with the side Pearson and Clarky have put together for next year, then we need to look at the coaching. For the last 3 years we have bemoaned the same things, and it hasn't been rectified. The accuracy and speed of our passing, Sneyd not committing defenders when in attack meaning he isn't giving the people outside him more space, Shaul not able to join the line at the right time, or on the right line to be able to put his centre/winger away.....etc, etc.

It is the same things. We can change the forwards and rely on their strength next season to get us some quicker play the balls and see how we go then, but it seems that we will be relying on a players individual skill or strength to get us points rather than playing with an attacking structure that sees us really trouble sides and get around them, rather than through them

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:23 pm  

granted hull were poor on Saturday,but all this talk of Jackson hastings been the bees knees,hes a good player no doubt,but were was he in the other 2 games we have played Salford this year and won both.

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:39 pm  

The previous home game against Salford, Hastings and Loui very nearly beat us, Griffin sent off I think.

In the away game, we won, did Griff get a hatrick, in a low key game.

Hastings is a fine player, and has all the attributes needed, the obvious drawbacks to class players like these is keeping them.

[Chris71]

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:43 pm  

fosdyke99 wrote:

granted hull were poor on Saturday,but all this talk of Jackson hastings been the bees knees,hes a good player no doubt,but were was he in the other 2 games we have played Salford this year and won both.

The same can be said about Austin also, as good as they are if you close them down quickly they are far less effective, the fact is on Saturday we never looked like we had any intention to do this and gave him all the time in the world. If the opposition gave Connor the same amount of time and space he'd no doubt have had similar success.

As good as Hastings & co & Salford as a team were, we simply gave them opportunity after opportunity to punish us, and they did just that.

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:50 pm  

It’s blatantly obvious we’re going to try and bash teams off the park next year.
I’ve been saying it a while though, the structures we have only seem to work if key personnel are on the field.
Saints can lose Roby, but they still play the same way.
We’re going to need to offer more than bish and bash.
I also said it on another thread - Connor needs to be tried at full back. The extra pivot would transform our attack, and the options we have.
We’ve needed Shaul in there to offer our only pace, but with Ratu and Swift we could maybe give it a go.

Big year next year - Can’t see AP accepting regular beatings at home.

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:43 pm  

Wilde 3 wrote:

There is set to be a big overhaul at the end of the season, with some exciting players coming in to the club....but with potentially only 2 players playing on Saturday who will not be here next season, are our real issues being resolved for next season?

1. Jamie Shaul - For me, this is one of the biggest issues with our attacking structure. Every game, the ball is passed out the back to Shaul, and he stops, comes back inside, running behind his own men and then has to take the tackle. Shaul tends to run into the space that his centre and winger needs, he cannot straighten his line, to attract a defender and then give the pass. He cannot put his centre or winger over for a try - and if you look at our competition in SL, they all have a full back who can do this - Ratchford, Coote (or Welsby), Tomkins, Evalds, Matautia. It means we are losing a pivot. Other teams have 3, and we are working with 2. For me, I would be asking Connor, or even Tuimavave (some of his best games at NZ Warriors were at FB) to be training there for next season.

2. Connor Conundrum - for me, Connor will only ever be a decent 6, but he is an International centre. He has begged Radford for game time at 6, and due to Kelly's lack of fitness during the year, he has had plenty of chances. I don't think he has the mentality to play as a half. If something doesn't go right, he sulks. Compared to Hastings on Saturday, things didn't go well at times, but he focussed on the next play. If he is adamant he wants to be a 6, I would cash in.

3. Defensive Structure - I think most are beginning to see what we try to do in defence. We only rush out if the opposition are 15 metres or less from their line. If they are past that, then we wait for the attackers to come to us. This is giving sides a good 50+ metres per set, and allowing a decent kicking position, meaning we are coming off our own line a lot of the time. Now, whether that is to conserve energy in defence, I don't know, but it isn't working and is counter-productive, as you have to work harder to get off your own line. It also means that our wingers are trying to play the ball as quickly as possible to get the momentum of the set started, and they lose the ball at the play the ball!

4. Mentality - there seems to be no grit, and no steel to the current crop of players. To get into an arm wrestle, to fight lost causes, to put their body in the line, to make a big hit to raise the side. Players like Manu Ma'u will bring that, but little is known of Sao and Satae at this stage to know if these players can re-invigorate the squad.

5. Sneyd - I fight a battle all the time over this guy. At times he has won us games, but then you look at how Hastings played for Salford, and I wish we had a number 7 like that. He runs at the line, tells his forwards were to run (and has them RUN ON TO THE BALL!!), can kick, can pass, can defend. Now I know we won 2 challenge cups, and he got Lance Todd in both of them (don't know how in 2016 by the way!), but you look at what Hastings does, and Sneyd doesn't run at the line, he doesn't commit defenders, he is an appalling tackler (Hampshire went past him like he wasn't there last week) and he got thrown off like a school kid against Saturday. In relation to point 1 about Shaul, is he not able to be a pivot, because the passing inside him from Sneyd/Houghton not crisp and quick enough to take some defenders away?

Tactics - Most fans who have seen us play the last few seasons, can pretty much tell you how a set will go. Faraimo, Naulago and Carlos will have a run from DH, or 1 off the ruck. Drop off to a prop, then a drop off to Manu. Then a kick. If we are within 20 of the oppositions line it will be a crossfield kick. Then repeat. Next season we have a group of players who are known for offloading, Josh Jones is 3rd in SL, Ma'u, Sao and Satae all have great stats for offloading, and we all know what Fonua can do. We need to be encouraging this next season, and practising our 2nd phase structures. Currently, our players switch off before tackles are even complete! Shaul twice I counted, was too busy looking around at what was happening for the next play (which he wouldn't even be involved in) rather than focussing on our ball carrier getting an offload away, and was caught unaware both times!


This has probably turned into a bit of a rant, but I guess to conclude, we cannot just expect these new signings to come in and transform us into a SL winning side. There are many different facets of our game that need to change for us to get the best out of the players we will have in our squad next year

a brilliant analysis, of our shortcomings...
Regarding our attack as a team,its pretty woeful, too many poor passes, dropped balls,
only results in more defensive work, then obviously less energy.
We rely solely on an individual bust,or a Sneyd speculator, we need a different attack coach added to the backroom staff.
Pearson will suggest Richard Horne is our attack coach, albeit part-time, but Horne in my opinion, was a superb support player and a great defender, but lacked creativity and his passing ability wasnt exactly top class.
The recruitment has been excellent for next season, but... I feel if we maintain the same tactics, and dont address our attacking issues, not a lot will change..

Re: Are 2019 issues being resolved for 2020 : Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:57 pm  

fosdyke99 wrote:

granted hull were poor on Saturday,but all this talk of Jackson hastings been the bees knees,hes a good player no doubt,but were was he in the other 2 games we have played Salford this year and won both.

Wait until next year at Wigan when he's not the main man in the team. Granted he's a fine player but he's not all that & he's already been binned off by 3 teams for arguing/fighting with teammates who were more important then him. Big fish small pond at Salford.