Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:40 pm  

bren2k wrote:

You have to admire the brass neck of people who suggest that Dr's, nurses, police officers and firefighters should work elsewhere if they don't like their T's and C's; the same people who will then moan when they can't get a GP appointment, be seen at hospital, or the police don't attend when they've been burgled; I do believe that arch Tory Sal, has complained about all three of those things on this very forum - but he blamed it on immigration and inefficiency, rather than chronic underfunding.

That we are even prepared to say out loud that if a nurse doesn't like the fact that s/he's had a significant real terms pay reduction over 7 years s/he should do something else, is a sad indictment of where the Tory ideology has taken us as a society; and if you needed any further proof that austerity was a choice rather than a necessity, look at the Tory MP's breaking ranks and calling for a reversal of the public sector pay freeze - the magic money tree has been located!

As have never been burgled, have private health insurance and seldom ever use my GP I think your comments are b00locks TBH. What I did say was if people didn't abuse the NHS the funding it needs would be significantly less than now - but of course that doesn't suit your agenda so you choose to overlook it. Perhaps if some idiots didn't get drunk and fight on a Saturday night those that really need A&E would find it much easier to access the service?

Without public money these doctors & nurses would not be in a position to ply their trade so an amount of loyaty should be expected would not agree? I trained as an accountant with a big 4 firm but their clients paid for that so I had no issue moving on.

Tory MPs breaking rank doesn't appear to have had impact on the Government's desire to balance the books

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:01 pm  

[quote="Sal Paradise"]As have never been burgled, have private health insurance and seldom ever use my GP I think your comments are b00locks TBH. What I did say was if people didn't abuse the NHS the funding it needs would be significantly less than now - but of course that doesn't suit your agenda so you choose to overlook it. Perhaps if some idiots didn't get drunk and fight on a Saturday night those that really need A&E would find it much easier to access the service?

Without public money these doctors & nurses would not be in a position to ply their trade so an amount of loyaty should be expected would not agree? I trained as an accountant with a big 4 firm but their clients paid for that so I had no issue moving on.

Tory MPs breaking rank doesn't appear to have had impact on the Government's desire to balance the books [/quote

You suggest that having been trained using public money, our doctors and nurses should, despite having their wages frozen/capped, should show a degree of loyalty.
However, loyalty cuts both ways and the relationship between employer and employee has to offer benefits to both sides.
Now, in terms of the NHS, its obvious to see where the benefits are to the employer but, stagnant wages impact negatively on the employee, so where is the loyalty or, should public servants just be "grateful" to have a job.
Also, the state trained staff will be the ones tending to your needs in your private clinic/hospital so, it's ok for them to be "disloyal" if it's helping you personally ???

More double standards ?

Finally, the shortage of "homegrown" doctors and nurses causes a "brain drain" in other countries but, again, this is ok as it's helping people in the UK ??

More double standards ?

How about having well trained staff, working in our NHS (and other local government departments) who feel valued and respected by their employer and those who use the service

Of course we need to try and reduce abuses within the system and there isn't a bottomless pit of cash to just grant pay rises willy nilly but, 7 years of frozen wages plus, no end in sight is taking the pi$$ and you know it.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:16 am  

I am sacrificing my disposable income to pay for health insurance. The double standard here I am paying twice for a service that I should be able to get through my NI contributions.

How have they had a wage freeze - they had two years of wage freeze - very typical of most people after the crash and then they had increases every year since. Do you expect them to receive above inflation increases within the whole public sector. 1% a year is not taking the pi$$ it is pretty normal in the private sector where definite salary increases are seldom written into to contractual arrangements.

Just throwing money at a problem is usually desperation and seldom yields positive long term benefits. There needs to be a debate about what we want from the NHS and huge drive to run it as efficiently as it can be and that includes modifying the behaviour of its patients. Once all that is done then see what the true cost of the NHS is and will guarantee you the monies it currently receives will be more than adequate.

Just think how much it has cost to manage the baby Leo case - the legal cost of defending the clinical expertise that has determined that child will have zero benefit in further treatment is this what the NHS is about. Think about how many cataract ops could be done for that money or meningitis jabs etc. The NHS cannot be all things to all people all the time.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:42 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I am sacrificing my disposable income to pay for health insurance. The double standard here I am paying twice for a service that I should be able to get through my NI contributions.

How have they had a wage freeze - they had two years of wage freeze - very typical of most people after the crash and then they had increases every year since. Do you expect them to receive above inflation increases within the whole public sector. 1% a year is not taking the pi$$ it is pretty normal in the private sector where definite salary increases are seldom written into to contractual arrangements.

Just throwing money at a problem is usually desperation and seldom yields positive long term benefits. There needs to be a debate about what we want from the NHS and huge drive to run it as efficiently as it can be and that includes modifying the behaviour of its patients. Once all that is done then see what the true cost of the NHS is and will guarantee you the monies it currently receives will be more than adequate.

Just think how much it has cost to manage the baby Leo case - the legal cost of defending the clinical expertise that has determined that child will have zero benefit in further treatment is this what the NHS is about. Think about how many cataract ops could be done for that money or meningitis jabs etc. The NHS cannot be all things to all people all the time.

Nice easy question for you.
After a 2 year pay freeze plus, 5 years with a 1% cap, in your opinion, how long is it reasonable to cap any pay increase at 1% ?

Regarding paying twice, that is your own personal choice and you wouldnt want/need to have additional cover if the NHS was equal in quality to your private scheme.
If you dont want to pay twice, then dont, it's your choice.

At a guess, your company will be paying this as a "perk" and you will only be getting "hit" for the "benefit in kind" taxation.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:14 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Nice easy question for you.
After a 2 year pay freeze plus, 5 years with a 1% cap, in your opinion, how long is it reasonable to cap any pay increase at 1% ?

Regarding paying twice, that is your own personal choice and you wouldnt want/need to have additional cover if the NHS was equal in quality to your private scheme.
If you dont want to pay twice, then dont, it's your choice.

At a guess, your company will be paying this as a "perk" and you will only be getting "hit" for the "benefit in kind" taxation.

The pay freeze is not strictly true, many workers move up through pay bands as they gain more experience. Also they are paid for training ,if they then pass the relevant tests they are financially rewarded. A friend of mine started work 4 years ago as a trainee para medic. He his now gaining more experience year on year. His pay rates have been substantially higher than one per cent. As mentioned before workers in the private sector have seen pay rates cut, also substantial redundancies have taken place.
This situation is still unfolding. Every week some company or other goes bust. Meanwhile workers in the public sector are safe in the knowledge that they are in safe and relatively well paid jobs. Most decent pension schemes in the private sector have disappeared. The public sector still has excellent pension schemes. It's highly likely due to brexit that further job losses will occur in the private sector. Can't see this happening in the public sector.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:19 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

What I did say was if people didn't abuse the NHS the funding it needs would be significantly less than now - but of course that doesn't suit your agenda so you choose to overlook it. Perhaps if some idiots didn't get drunk and fight on a Saturday night those that really need A&E would find it much easier to access the service?

I'm loathe to agree with you; but one area we can find some congruence is the burden that self-inflicted ailments puts on the NHS. Obesity, alcohol related shenanigans, smoking - all areas in which self-injurious lifestyle choices are mopped up by the NHS. The problem with that argument of course, is that it could easily be extended to injuries incurred doing sports and outdoor activities - broken legs from skiing trips, 5-a-side football sprains, falling off a horse etc. So the choice to withhold free treatment from people due to lifestyle choices is less simple than it appears.

I know that 999 and A&E are abused by some people - I question if that would reduce were more alternatives available - but I just don't know enough about the root cause to have a strong view.

With regard to your disdain for NHS staff - wake up and think bigger. I also have private health insurance through my company - and I recognise 2 things; firstly, the staff who treat me are trained in the NHS and secondly, when I've needed an actual procedure, it was carried out in an NHS hospital, and I was transferred back to the private one afterwards to recover in nicer surroundings, with better food.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:21 am  

PrinterThe wrote:

You didn't disappoint.

I'm pleased about that; unfortunately, you did.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:23 am  

Backwoodsman wrote:

The pay freeze is not strictly true, many workers move up through pay bands as they gain more experience. Also they are paid for training ,if they then pass the relevant tests they are financially rewarded. A friend of mine started work 4 years ago as a trainee para medic. He his now gaining more experience year on year. His pay rates have been substantially higher than one per cent. As mentioned before workers in the private sector have seen pay rates cut, also substantial redundancies have taken place.
This situation is still unfolding. Every week some company or other goes bust. Meanwhile workers in the public sector are safe in the knowledge that they are in safe and relatively well paid jobs. Most decent pension schemes in the private sector have disappeared. The public sector still has excellent pension schemes. It's highly likely due to brexit that further job losses will occur in the private sector. Can't see this happening in the public sector.

So, are you saying that the 1% cap should remain indefinitely ?

What happened to our "strong and stable" economy, with the fastest growth in the EU, was that just an exaggeration.
Also, Brexit is supposed to make Britain prosperous again, without "us" being shackled to the EU.
I think this was just a downright lie but, we're all begining to find out that this was just wishful thinking on a scale that makes Corbyn's ecconomics look understated.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:11 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

So, are you saying that the 1% cap should remain indefinitely ?

What happened to our "strong and stable" economy, with the fastest growth in the EU, was that just an exaggeration.
Also, Brexit is supposed to make Britain prosperous again, without "us" being shackled to the EU.
I think this was just a downright lie but, we're all begining to find out that this was just wishful thinking on a scale that makes Corbyn's ecconomics look understated.

Not sure how the UK will ever totally eliminate the deficit and provide any level of public service on the current trajectory. For example, lets say a care worker funded by the state is paid £10 an hour. As they are all 'out-sourced' the state funds an agency's mark up - let's say they pay the agency £12 per hour, making £2 state funded profit (ignoring other overheads as if the state provided the workers direct there would be overheads too - in fact almost certainly a lot less). So, the state pays £2 and the most it gets back in corporation tax is 20% of £2 or 40p. So, the deficit increases by £1.60 per hour worked. Which of course means the Tory government says we need as a country to tighten our belts further. With the current approach and without further tax rises, the only way to eliminate the deficit totally is to remove the welfare state, NHS, etc, etc completely which is of course their aim.

Re: T. May the worst prime minister ever ? : Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:31 pm  

Dally wrote:

Not sure how the UK will ever totally eliminate the deficit and provide any level of public service on the current trajectory. For example, lets say a care worker funded by the state is paid £10 an hour. As they are all 'out-sourced' the state funds an agency's mark up - let's say they pay the agency £12 per hour, making £2 state funded profit (ignoring other overheads as if the state provided the workers direct there would be overheads too - in fact almost certainly a lot less). So, the state pays £2 and the most it gets back in corporation tax is 20% of £2 or 40p. So, the deficit increases by £1.60 per hour worked. Which of course means the Tory government says we need as a country to tighten our belts further. With the current approach and without further tax rises, the only way to eliminate the deficit totally is to remove the welfare state, NHS, etc, etc completely which is of course their aim.

Although, in one sense, your theory may be on the right lines, the economy should still have some growth in it.
It's extremely defeatist for a capitalist economy to be contemplating stagnation and after all, with a growing population and with record numbers in work, a growing economy and utopia on the horizon following Brexit, we should be able to afford plenty (and that's without our £350 million a week that we will be getting back from the EU, which we could use to help the NHS )
This is of course assuming that we haven't been sold a pup and surely the majority of the voting population, who bothered to vote, wouldn't have got it wrong, after all they're not thick and most of them had "researched" membership of the EU and decided that it wasn't the way forward.
I'm really upbeat and feel lucky to live in such an outward thinking country, arent you ?