Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:06 am  

Bullseye wrote:

JRM said that it could be 50 years before we see any benefit from leaving.

No doubt this is fake news, anyhow this surely proves the blip is only short / medium term, if you're a Bowhead Whale.

With less than a fortnight to the vote, I really haven't a clue what the outcome is going to be - interesting times!

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:52 pm  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

No doubt this is fake news, anyhow this surely proves the blip is only short / medium term, if you're a Bowhead Whale.

With less than a fortnight to the vote, I really haven't a clue what the outcome is going to be - interesting times!

I'm not sure what options we actually have.
It seems that accepting the deal leaves us worse off and not necessarily out of the EU (although it would still be possible) or no deal, which gets us out of the EU but will hit our pockets even harder, although we would have "control" (whatever that actually is).
A second referendum, even if it were possible, would just keep us all spinning on the Brexit merry go round and remaining in the EU would be to drive a bus through the democratic process.

I hope that Mr Farage's family are truly proud of him because what we seem to be facing wasn't mentioned by anyone.

Brave new world ? my booty.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:18 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

remaining in the EU would be to drive a bus through the democratic process.

I can understand that argument but the best comparison I have heard is likening it to going to Switzerland to Dignitas for assisted suicide as you have a fatal illness. When you get there you discover it is not terminal after all but you go through with it anyway.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Nov 28, 2018 4:51 pm  

tigertot wrote:

I can understand that argument but the best comparison I have heard is likening it to going to Switzerland to Dignitas for assisted suicide as you have a fatal illness. When you get there you discover it is not terminal after all but you go through with it anyway.

I actually agree with you but, just because you and I think that "leaving" is a nightmare and should be avoided, doesnt mean that we should avoid it.

The majority that could be bothered to vote, wanted us out and in a cruel twist of irony, those who this decision will affect most/for longest, will indeed get to pay for their apathy.

The fall back position is that the world willl keep turning and we will be worse off by degrees, it's not quite life or death and straight forward ecconomic decisions will shape our financial future more than Brexit itself.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Nov 28, 2018 5:00 pm  

bren2k wrote:

And what will they gain from their "win?"

At the moment nobody knows if the outcome will be beneficial or not. Everything at the moment seems ok. It may change dramatically in the next few months.It may be several years before anybody can draw any firm conclusions from our leaving.
On the other hand if Teresa May somehow mages to win the vote we won’t be leaving the EU. As someone remarked it will be BINO (brexit in name only). British business will love that, the stock market will boom so farage and Johnson will have too shut up. As someone on here remarked interesting times indeed. Looking back the remain campaign was woeful, negative and doom mongers. Some of the EU benefits which are now being highlighted were hardly mentioned in the campaign to remain.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Wed Nov 28, 2018 6:44 pm  

Well May's Project Fear has been unleaded with a Chancellor and supposedly independent BoE Governor saying the same things at the same time! A rerun of the doom laden Remain referendum campaign.

This thing is set to run on. If May somehow gets this ridiculous sell out through the HoC there will be a general election as dissenters and DUP will stop supporting the government (unless of course Labour's luvvie wing or LimpDems step in to save May).

Interesting times ahead.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:12 am  

Dally wrote:

(unless of course Labour's luvvie wing or LimpDems step in to save May).

I think that's still a possibility - there are no depths to which the Blairite wing of the Labour party won't sink to scupper Corbyn, so whilst it would undoubtedly be their last act prior to being deselected by their CLP's, they may still roll over; and after Mr Clegg accepted a role as Cameron's fag in his desperate desire for a ministerial car, one never knows what the otherwise irrelevant LibDem's will do.

I note with interest that JC moved his position slightly yesterday; if the deal does not get through, Labour will call for a vote of no confidence in the government, which would trigger a GE - and if that's not successful, a PV may be the only option - so he could still save us from this madness after all, given that the much-touted "will of the people" has clearly changed in the 2 years since the referendum. Meanwhile, the planet-sized brain of Kier Starmer is busy on manoeuvres, securing a contempt of Parliament motion if they don't publish the full legal impact analysis - which would be devastating for the government.

It's all unravelling for Mrs May and by extension, the Tory party, which is nice.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:01 pm  

bren2k wrote:

I think that's still a possibility - there are no depths to which the Blairite wing of the Labour party won't sink to scupper Corbyn, so whilst it would undoubtedly be their last act prior to being deselected by their CLP's, they may still roll over; and after Mr Clegg accepted a role as Cameron's fag in his desperate desire for a ministerial car, one never knows what the otherwise irrelevant LibDem's will do.

I note with interest that JC moved his position slightly yesterday; if the deal does not get through, Labour will call for a vote of no confidence in the government, which would trigger a GE - and if that's not successful, a PV may be the only option - so he could still save us from this madness after all, given that the much-touted "will of the people" has clearly changed in the 2 years since the referendum. Meanwhile, the planet-sized brain of Kier Starmer is busy on manoeuvres, securing a contempt of Parliament motion if they don't publish the full legal impact analysis - which would be devastating for the government.

It's all unravelling for Mrs May and by extension, the Tory party, which is nice.

Labour have been drip-feeding their General Election agenda for a few weeks now. Someone at Labour HQ has clearly had a brainwave and decided this is their best strategy.

For the sake of forcing a General Election Labour are willing to land us with no deal. Think about that. Ignore your constituents, and push us into the worst possible scenario. Disgraceful.

Similarly, hard Remainers and Brexiteers in all parties are willing to vote against May's deal to support their agendas - although attitudes do seem to be softening as the reality hits home - it's May's deal or nothing. All their talk of 'securing a better option' is dangerous rhetoric and simply not possible. I've always said political games would be the most significant hurdle in getting a reasonable deal, and that is proving to be the case.

It's far from perfect but that was always going to be the case. And yes (as I've said for 2 years), we'll take a hit but in the long term we'll be better off, and that's before even considering the other reasons for leaving.

That said, murmurs from Labour HQ that JC is in fact in favour of May's deal...who knows...

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:13 pm  

Cronus wrote:

It's far from perfect but that was always going to be the case. And yes (as I've said for 2 years), we'll take a hit but in the long term we'll be better off, and that's before even considering the other reasons for leaving.

But "in the long term" is such a fuzzy concept, that those people who will have to live through the "taking a hit" years are waking up to the fact that they've been taking enough hits for the past 8 years, and they're a bit sick of it - which is why public opinion has changed in my view; it actually wasn't the EU or immigrants - it was Tory austerity - and we've had enough thanks very much.

I admire Corbyn's approach to this - he was always playing a long game, and it appears to be paying off; because contrary to Mrs May's lies about her deal or no deal, there are other options. Meanwhile, a GE will sweep Labour into power, and a PV would see us Remain in the EU - which would be a win/win, and not the divisive two's up to democracy that many claim - as polling clearly shows now that the will of the people has changed.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:23 pm  

Cronus wrote:

It's far from perfect but that was always going to be the case. And yes (as I've said for 2 years), we'll take a hit but in the long term we'll be better off, and that's before even considering the other reasons for leaving.

I am aware from your many previous posts that economics was barely on your list of reasons for leaving.
However, please explain where the "long term we'll be better off" comes from ?

There isn't a single forecast to indicate any economic advantage for being outside the EU (even in the long term), the guff spouted by Farage and Gove doesn't count. Could you please provide a link to ANY independent prediction of prosperity.

As for the "May" deal, just how far away from your hopes and expectations is it ?