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The Video Ref wrote:
I am still not sure why everyone is so fussed about drone strikes. I really don't see the difference between a ship / plane launching a missile that blows up a target 200 miles away (little / no risk to operator) and an unmanned drone being piloted from Nevada or RAF Waddington.


I think people are less "fussed" by the merits of manned or unmanned aeroplanes than their use to conduct extra-judicial assassinations in sovereign states we aren't at war with.
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According to the Indy front page this morning, Iran is set to send 4,000 troops to help Assad.

That'll be fun.
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Him wrote:
But also the UN isn't going to get involved without the US. The US is the only nation with the capability to get involved.

And staying the hell out of it isn't necessarily a good option, as I said see Rwanda. Inaction can have just as wide consequences as action.
As I said there are no passive options, the option to stay the hell out of it is also the option that says we don't care what happens there.

I'm not saying the US response of arming rebels is the best one, I think they've been emboldened by Libya where arming and supporting the rebels worked. But all I'm saying is that every option has consequences, including choosing not to act, especially if chemical weapons are being used in what seems to descending into sectarian violence.


The West getting involved in Persia, as was, created a whole set of problems. Letting Israel get away with its behaviour has also caused problems.
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Mintball wrote:
The West getting involved in Persia, as was, created a whole set of problems. Letting Israel get away with its behaviour has also caused problems.

Indeed. But would those problems have been created anyway? Or other problems like possible war between Iran & Iraq? Or further crackdowns on Kurds or on Shia populations?
Don't get me wrong I'm not defending the war in Iraq, especially the way it was conducted, but there is a tendency amongst some on the left and in some media outlets to pretend that if only we just left alone everything would be alright.
I'm very much of the persuasion that we have a duty to help those less fortunate than ourselves at all levels, from contributing to a decent welfare state, to giving to charities, to helping people in other countries either through aid or even militarily when necessary. We're one of the most powerful and one of the richest nations on earth and I find it difficult to just sit back and watch people kill each other when we have the capability to do something about it.
I'm not ascribing any of that to you or anyone else on here by the way, merely a frustration at the sometimes short-sighted views like those who say "get our boys out of Afghanistan". We should stay until the job is done or not have gone in the first place if we didnt have the balls to see it through.

On Israel, I agree entirely. Israel is the single biggest cause of anti-western sentiment by a country mile. And sadly this generally leads to both religious and political extremism in the region.
If the Israel problem could be overcome I'm convinced moderate views and eventual democracy would come to the region.
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Him wrote:
Indeed. But would those problems have been created anyway? Or other problems like possible war between Iran & Iraq? Or further crackdowns on Kurds or on Shia populations?


It's possible to dream up any number of apocalyptic future scenarios for the region. That said, it's worth recalling that Kurds, Sunni and Shia Muslims and even Jews have lived, for the most part, in peace alongside each other for centuries.

Let's not allow potential conflicts to outweigh the threat posed by current ones.

Don't get me wrong I'm not defending the war in Iraq, especially the way it was conducted, but there is a tendency amongst some on the left and in some media outlets to pretend that if only we just left alone everything would be alright.


Anyone who has lived knows only too well that poop happens. But this shouldn't encourage us to drop our pants and let rip on people below.

I'm very much of the persuasion that we have a duty to help those less fortunate than ourselves at all levels, from contributing to a decent welfare state, to giving to charities, to helping people in other countries either through aid or even militarily when necessary. We're one of the most powerful and one of the richest nations on earth and I find it difficult to just sit back and watch people kill each other when we have the capability to do something about it.


I think it was Chinua Achebe who highlighted the relationship between first world states ideologically committed to helping the "less fortunate" and the accumulation of fortune.

It's a comforting thought - despatching our brave warriors to distant quarters in order to protect the helpless. But wars are not fought for such reasons. War is a racket. Always has been. Always will be. Whilst I'm sure many (most) of those involved genuinely believe they are fighting for something noble - let us not be so childishly naive in thinking altruism trumped avarice in the decision to commit.
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Him wrote:
...
Don't get me wrong I'm not defending the war in Iraq, especially the way it was conducted, but there is a tendency amongst some on the left and in some media outlets to pretend that if only we just left alone everything would be alright...

I don't see it that way.
To me, staying out of it will be terrible for those involved ... but intervention stands a good chance of making it far worse whilst leaving the underlying issues unresolved (see Iraq and Afghanistan) and also adding to the list of real and perceived grievances for which Islamic extremists would seek retribution.
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Only 30 odd blown to smithereens today.
Post Iraq War utopia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22925436
Only 30 odd blown to smithereens today.
Post Iraq War utopia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22925436
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El Barbudo wrote:
I don't see it that way.
To me, staying out of it will be terrible for those involved ... but intervention stands a good chance of making it far worse whilst leaving the underlying issues unresolved (see Iraq and Afghanistan) and also adding to the list of real and perceived grievances for which Islamic extremists would seek retribution.


That about sums up my view of the situation. Our getting involved is unlikely to reduce the overall death toll, or alleviate the suffering of innocent civilians. There are no upsides to our involvement, and fxcking hundreds of downsides. I hope that whatever Obama decides to do, we have the sense to stay out of it.
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See our imbecilic PM who made Syria one of his two main objectives got a good kicking:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 61048.html
See our imbecilic PM who made Syria one of his two main objectives got a good kicking:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 61048.html
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The Voluptuous Manifesto – thoughts on all sorts of stuff.

El Barbudo wrote:
I don't see it that way.
To me, staying out of it will be terrible for those involved ... but intervention stands a good chance of making it far worse whilst leaving the underlying issues unresolved (see Iraq and Afghanistan) and also adding to the list of real and perceived grievances for which Islamic extremists would seek retribution.


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