Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:43 pm  

bren2k wrote:

So what's your solution? Bo**ocks to the 10% who don't happen to live on a profit-making bus route?

Meanwhile, 'making everyone poorer' actually means reducing traffic on the roads and by extension, cleaning the air; increasing connectivity to rural and small communities, so more people can become economically active; allowing young people to live in the communities they grew up in rather than moving to increasingly overcrowded and unaffordable conurbations; all that annoying, socialisty stuff?

It would be much easier for you to just agree that Corbyn was right about the buses; I don't think it will make you ill or anything.

Its about catering to the majority - is it better to keep 90% happy or upset 90% - these routes don't exist because nobody uses them so actually you are increasing traffic and reducing clean air on the roads by running routes just to cater to a very few passengers. Young people who work in the city will be serviced by routes that exist to service that requirement i.e. early morning and early evening rush hours. Capitalism at its finest.

Corbyn was wrong about buses - much better to invest in electric rail infrastructure. Do you think Leeds would be a more efficient/effective city if it had a Metro similar to Newcastle/Manchester or Liverpool or a load more buses creating even greater traffic jam? If we want to get people out of cars then we need a fast reliable service in the city and its surrounding boroughs - buses are not the way.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:54 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Its about catering to the majority - is it better to keep 90% happy or upset 90% - these routes don't exist because nobody uses them so actually you are increasing traffic and reducing clean air on the roads by running routes just to cater to a very few passengers. Young people who work in the city will be serviced by routes that exist to service that requirement i.e. early morning and early evening rush hours. Capitalism at its finest.

Corbyn was wrong about buses - much better to invest in electric rail infrastructure. Do you think Leeds would be a more efficient/effective city if it had a Metro similar to Newcastle/Manchester or Liverpool or a load more buses creating even greater traffic jam? If we want to get people out of cars then we need a fast reliable service in the city and its surrounding boroughs - buses are not the way.

You really are a tiresome dullard.

Nobody uses them *because* they don't exist - of course *someone* wants to use them - but not enough people to make it profitable for a private company; your typically selfish and glib suggestion was in fact, a resounding yes to my question about bo**cks to those people.

The modern bus would of course use alternative fuel - so whilst it serves your argument to conjure up an image of an old Routemaster spewing out black diesel smoke - you know that's not at all what I'm advocating.

Electric trains are a lovely idea - but there does have to be a viable way for people to get to the stations.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:08 pm  

bren2k wrote:

You really are a tiresome dullard.

Nobody uses them *because* they don't exist - of course *someone* wants to use them - but not enough people to make it profitable for a private company; your typically selfish and glib suggestion was in fact, a resounding yes to my question about bo**cks to those people.

The modern bus would of course use alternative fuel - so whilst it serves your argument to conjure up an image of an old Routemaster spewing out black diesel smoke - you know that's not at all what I'm advocating.

Electric trains are a lovely idea - but there does have to be a viable way for people to get to the stations.

Of course I am because unlike you I don't worship with uncle Jeremy and uncle John. You are a Neanderthal hankering after a by gone age just like your heroes. If the election didn't suggest you are out of step with public opinion then nothing will. When will it get into your thick skull that Socialism is idea not a practical solution to anything. As a society we have to make choses we cannot be all things to all people - we could dump the GDP into the NHS and it still wouldn't cover everything everybody wanted. The fact that you cannot comprehend these simple concepts and that compromises are needed - so we put your bus routes we have take money from somewhere else - so we run less routes when people want to actually use them so a very few get a great service - we upset many to cater for the few - where is the logic in that?

How do people get to the stations on the underground - usually either walking or via connectivity through main line stations - this is not difficult even for you.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:29 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Of course I am because unlike you I don't worship with uncle Jeremy and uncle John. You are a Neanderthal hankering after a by gone age just like your heroes. If the election didn't suggest you are out of step with public opinion then nothing will. When will it get into your thick skull that Socialism is idea not a practical solution to anything. As a society we have to make choses we cannot be all things to all people - we could dump the GDP into the NHS and it still wouldn't cover everything everybody wanted. The fact that you cannot comprehend these simple concepts and that compromises are needed - so we put your bus routes we have take money from somewhere else - so we run less routes when people want to actually use them so a very few get a great service - we upset many to cater for the few - where is the logic in that?

How do people get to the stations on the underground - usually either walking or via connectivity through main line stations - this is not difficult even for you.

What on earth are you talking about man?! My entire point was that not everything has to be capitalism v socialism argument; and that when Corbyn talked about buses in the HoP and was jeered at, Johnson is now talking about buses and is being lauded for investing in northern communities. It's just common sense that if you want people to work and to travel in a greener way, you have to provide the infrastructure to enable that - and it's not socialism or any other ism to understand that if you leave the profit motive as the only driver, it won't happen to the extent that you need it to.

Cool story about the underground - maybe he'll build one in Rotherham when the bridge from Scotland to Ireland is finished?

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:10 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Of course I am because unlike you I don't worship with uncle Jeremy and uncle John. You are a Neanderthal hankering after a by gone age just like your heroes. If the election didn't suggest you are out of step with public opinion then nothing will. When will it get into your thick skull that Socialism is idea not a practical solution to anything. As a society we have to make choses we cannot be all things to all people - we could dump the GDP into the NHS and it still wouldn't cover everything everybody wanted. The fact that you cannot comprehend these simple concepts and that compromises are needed - so we put your bus routes we have take money from somewhere else - so we run less routes when people want to actually use them so a very few get a great service - we upset many to cater for the few - where is the logic in that?

How do people get to the stations on the underground - usually either walking or via connectivity through main line stations - this is not difficult even for you.

The fundamental of any public transport system is availability, accessibility and affordability.
Left purely to commercial operators, the less profitable routes are axed and the profitable ones kept.

However, this doesn't work in rural areas and there has to be some provision for EVERYONE

Personally, I'm pleased that HS2 has finally got the go-ahead and it should have happened long ago, which would have kept the lid on some of the spiraling costs.
Nothing that was costed 15 years ago would cost the same price today and in many ways, we only have ourselves to blame.
WE (as a nation) should be striving for the best and most efficient transport system possible.

Regarding the NHS, perhaps there should be some limits put on the service. However, in a fast moving sector and with the development of new medicines/ procedures, this probably isn't realistic.
However, the hard facts are that despite Boris having found how to open the public purse, the 10 years of austerity have put us all so far behind the start line that, it will take some time to catch up.

Mind you, out "healthy" ecconomy may not quite contribute enough for his new myriad of spending promises and with falling tax receipts and zero growth, it looks like the "one nation conservative" model, is something stolen from Tony Blair.

It's a funny old world.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:52 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

Its about catering to the majority - is it better to keep 90% happy or upset 90% - these routes don't exist because nobody uses them so actually you are increasing traffic and reducing clean air on the roads by running routes just to cater to a very few passengers. Young people who work in the city will be serviced by routes that exist to service that requirement i.e. early morning and early evening rush hours. Capitalism at its finest.

Corbyn was wrong about buses - much better to invest in electric rail infrastructure. Do you think Leeds would be a more efficient/effective city if it had a Metro similar to Newcastle/Manchester or Liverpool or a load more buses creating even greater traffic jam? If we want to get people out of cars then we need a fast reliable service in the city and its surrounding boroughs - buses are not the way.

I agree with this. Living in London now, I compare almost everything negatively to the north, quality of houses, expense, people being bootyholes and so on. The one thing that London beats everywhere up north for is the transport network. It's all integrated, bus, rail, Tube, you pay for it simply through contactless. Buses here are way cheaper than up north, its £1.50 flat fee per journey. It really is easy to get around.

But to replicate that in the north, you are talking about enormous levels of public expenditure on infrastructure building. That means hard choices about taxes or borrowing.

Also, in the Brexit lexicon, this is a very 'metropolitan' issue too. It doesn't do much for the more rural towns, who would complain that they are even more left behind, if they are paying more in tax to build this type of stuff.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:57 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I wouldn't have thought so. It would just mean that you would have contributed less, by virtue of only getting basic rate tax relief on all contributions.
Mind you, there would be ways around any changes and a company could quite easily increase it's own contributions and take a lower share from the employee.

Except a lot of high earners are self-employed via partnerships.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:17 am  

bren2k wrote:

What on earth are you talking about man?! My entire point was that not everything has to be capitalism v socialism argument; and that when Corbyn talked about buses in the HoP and was jeered at, Johnson is now talking about buses and is being lauded for investing in northern communities. It's just common sense that if you want people to work and to travel in a greener way, you have to provide the infrastructure to enable that - and it's not socialism or any other ism to understand that if you leave the profit motive as the only driver, it won't happen to the extent that you need it to.

Cool story about the underground - maybe he'll build one in Rotherham when the bridge from Scotland to Ireland is finished?

You are suggesting - unless I'm wrong - that we need more buses because the service for a very few people isn't what it needs to be. So in order to do that we need to either nationalise it or put more routes on? Either way the costs to the majority will rise - is that really the way forward. Either way you would be introducing more journeys, more pollution - something you said you didn't want. If you want a quick lower pollution option then electric trains are a more much agreeable solution - that is where Corbyn is wrong. HS2 £106bn buses cycles £5bn indicates where the priorities - correct in my view.

Life is not fair - as I said there are choses to be made - there isn't a bottomless pit of money so if you invest in one area you de-invest somewhere else. For me because a very small minority of people don't have access to bus route when they want so be it - I would much rather we invest in menigitis jabs for kids at school. These are difficult choses.

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:40 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

a very small minority of people don't have access to bus route when they want so be it - I would much rather we invest in menigitis jabs for kids at school. These are difficult choses.

The logical fallacy of false dilemma; even Boris Johnson wouldn't resort to offering bus routes *or* vaccinations for children, you madman.

I don't actually think the bus thing is that complicated - you seem to want to make it an ideological argument about the unfairness of life and the need to make hard choices; in this instance, you're reaching too far. For me, if you want to operate a bus service for profit, there should be some requirements to serve the whole community - even if that means that some routes are not profitable. Plenty of private businesses, my own included, operate within a regulatory framework that requires us to do things that if we didn't have to do, would make us much more profit - but we do them because they are deemed to be for the greater good - and it allows us into a market in which we make profit anyway.

There are some interesting examples of community bus services for isolated people - I work a lot in Chesterfield, and there's a charity operated service here that covers the rural areas that the bigger players don't - and it also services hospitals, care homes and people who are otherwise housebound; maybe a levy on private operators to fund similar projects is a more efficient and cost effective way of providing wider coverage?

Re: TORY Mansion tax and pension raid ? : Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:46 pm  

bren2k wrote:

:lol:

The logical fallacy of false dilemma; even Boris Johnson wouldn't resort to offering bus routes *or* vaccinations for children, you madman.

I don't actually think the bus thing is that complicated - you seem to want to make it an ideological argument about the unfairness of life and the need to make hard choices; in this instance, you're reaching too far. For me, if you want to operate a bus service for profit, there should be some requirements to serve the whole community - even if that means that some routes are not profitable. Plenty of private businesses, my own included, operate within a regulatory framework that requires us to do things that if we didn't have to do, would make us much more profit - but we do them because they are deemed to be for the greater good - and it allows us into a market in which we make profit anyway.

There are some interesting examples of community bus services for isolated people - I work a lot in Chesterfield, and there's a charity operated service here that covers the rural areas that the bigger players don't - and it also services hospitals, care homes and people who are otherwise housebound; maybe a levy on private operators to fund similar projects is a more efficient and cost effective way of providing wider coverage?

For me I would subsidise these routes if we genuinely think it is so important - that way the cost can calculated correctly and the service agreed. If you make the obligations so onerous no private company will make money and you are back to your preferred model. The problem is in public ownership you will require to be all things to all people and costs will increase significantly.