Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:55 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

Is that not an argument to be in it to reform it rather than be outside and try to wrap ourselves up in a bubble and pretend that global warming, world poverty, terrorism and refugee crisis are all going to stop in some bubble wrapped Britain.

That's plain silly. Whether we are in or out of a political union is wholly irrelevant to those things. They will happen. On terrorism and refuges owe would be better placed. On poverty we already give more aid than other EU countries. On global warming we can choose our response and the EU there's. Can't see any real difference there.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:01 pm  

brearley84 wrote:

millions then

Similar to the millions that voted for the Nazis in 1930s Germany, unfortunately.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:06 pm  

Durham Giant wrote:

Is that not an argument to be in it to reform it rather than be outside and try to wrap ourselves up in a bubble and pretend that global warming, world poverty, terrorism and refugee crisis are all going to stop in some bubble wrapped Britain.

The worst thing Dave could have done is state he would get a renegotiation , then get pretty much nothing , that basically shows how much influence and power we have within the EU

So reform from within ? , no chance

At the moment we are within the EU bubble , that's the idea of getting out

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:10 pm  

headhunter wrote:

Similar to the millions that voted for the Nazis in 1930s Germany, unfortunately.

Out of order there I'm afraid

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:33 pm  

GUBRATS wrote:

Out of order there I'm afraid

Not at all. Both are insular, backwards-thinking arguments based entirely on bluster, blaming foreigners for domestic problems, cultivating a negative rhetoric and fear of outsiders, an 'us vs them' mentality and misplaced ideas of patriotism. The people who voted for the Nazis weren't bad people, they were just idiots who were easily influenced and bought into the bluster which struck a chord at the time. Just the same as Trump supporters in the USA. Sadly many people are not intelligent enough not to want scapegoats.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:43 pm  

GUBRATS wrote:

So you are ok with Britains population growing by over a third of a million a year by immigration alone ? , and possibly increasing on that figure ?

That's the net migration figure. Roughly half of which is migration from outside the EU.

Britains population is growing by roughly the same amount (1/3rd million) through the birth rate.

If we left the EU and stopped ALL immigration from EU nations (which is unlikely) then we'd only stop roughly 160/170k net immigrants and only deal with roughly a quarter of the problem.

I'd far rather we build alliances in the EU to put restrictions on those countries that shouldn't have been allowed in with full EU membership. Plenty of other countries struggle with this issue and it's better to be in there to solve it rather than leave and not be able to do anything about it, as Norway are finding now.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:45 pm  

I would have really liked to amend the title of this thread, with an added addendum of a vote thing. Unfortunately I didn’t have the will to figure it out.

I digress, how come neither side haven’t wheeled out a famous celebrity or two?

Personally it wouldn’t matter who came on the telly, nobody could sway my vote, but I’m sure there’s millions of low intelligence voters who could still be persuaded by a celebrity endorsement.

Here’s a few who could pull some in.

1 – The Queen (I know, but what do you do )

2 - Jeremy Kyle (If they can be @rsed to get off the sofa)

3 – Simon Cowell (See above)

4 – Michael Parkinson (Another one for the oldies, but more “Northern”)

Please feel free to add.

Before I go, I must harp back to the oldies, I’m talking eighty plus. Do they really deserve a vote, or is it one last “#uck You” from a generation of global conflict?

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:56 pm  

headhunter wrote:

Not at all. Both are insular, backwards-thinking arguments based entirely on bluster, blaming foreigners for domestic problems, cultivating a negative rhetoric and fear of outsiders, an 'us vs them' mentality and misplaced ideas of patriotism. The people who voted for the Nazis weren't bad people, they were just idiots who were easily influenced and bought into the bluster which struck a chord at the time. Just the same as Trump supporters in the USA. Sadly many people are not intelligent enough not to want scapegoats.

If we're taking the word "vote" to mean any kind of substantive process then the people who voted in the Nazis were the 1% - banking elites, industrial conglomerates - plus outside finance (mainly from the US & UK) - who sought first to protect their assets from the very real threat of appropriation by the Left (as happened in Russia on Herbert Hoover's watch) and then finally to enrich themselves by smashing labour unions, conscripting forced labour etc.

The media would have us believe the Nazis were swept into power by the popular vote when this couldn't be further from the truth. In reality they (just) managed to squeeze a toe-hold in elections and then expertly employed the Four Bs (Bullets, Blackmail, Bribery & Broads) to consolidate their position.

But NONE of this would have been possible without huge financial injections by Henry Ford, JP Morgan, Du Pont, I.G. Farben etc.

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:29 pm  

Him wrote:

That's the net migration figure. Roughly half of which is migration from outside the EU.

Britains population is growing by roughly the same amount (1/3rd million) through the birth rate.

If we left the EU and stopped ALL immigration from EU nations (which is unlikely) then we'd only stop roughly 160/170k net immigrants and only deal with roughly a quarter of the problem.

I'd far rather we build alliances in the EU to put restrictions on those countries that shouldn't have been allowed in with full EU membership. Plenty of other countries struggle with this issue and it's better to be in there to solve it rather than leave and not be able to do anything about it, as Norway are finding now.

Whilst I applaud your willingness to embrace the word "negotiation" I'm afraid you are just a bit too late. It's a bit like stopping to reconsider whether it's a good idea to purchase an ocean liner after the champagne bottle has been broken on its bow, the blocks have been kicked out and it's rumbling down the ramp.

Part of the problem is the language of the debate itself (as defined by the media) which sets limits on its scope.

"Brexit" sounds so ... innocuous. But then I guess it needs to be because "Brescape" ... or plain old "RUN!" might just give the game away.

When will people finally wake up and realise that there's a WAR coming? And when it does do you seriously think people are going to care one way or another about "negotiation"?

Re: Brexit Anyone? : Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:49 am  

The Devil's Advocate wrote:

how come neither side haven’t wheeled out a famous celebrity or two?

Where is the anti-capitalist, socialist revolutionary that is Russell Brand? Maybe he's too busy decorating his Henley mansion so he can move in a few families of Syrian refugees?