Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:55 pm  

Mugwump wrote:

If we are going to play silly games, so does this:

Got a list of people killed on religious grounds?

Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:39 pm  

cod'ead wrote:

Got a list of people killed on religious grounds?

Well the biggest mass murderers in history didn't kill for religious reasons: Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot - 3 did it in the name of communism (why killing your people is good for the community I am not sure) and the other was a national socialist. So, I would suggest that warped political philosophy is rather evil. It suppresses religion in order to impose its evil. Bit like the modern Labour Party.

Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:41 pm  

Dally wrote:

Seems like the Guides leadership is out of touch. The new Superman film has been marketed via churches in the USA on account of its Christian-like message. Churches were given film clips, ideas for sernons, etc and it's been a huge box office success.

Christian-like message is right.
i.e. A superhuman mythical being from out there somewhere.

Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:49 pm  

Dally wrote:

Well the biggest mass murderers in history didn't kill for religious reasons: Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot - 3 did it in the name of communism (why killing your people is good for the community I am not sure) and the other was a national socialist. So, I would suggest that warped political philosophy is rather evil. It suppresses religion in order to impose its evil. Bit like the modern Labour Party.

Hitler was religion and used religious hatred as a weapon (playing the old 'Christ-killers' bit about the Jews). The Nazis were supported, at differing times, by assorted Christian churches – and also by the World Zionist Council.

Conveniently, you 'forget' the likes of Franco and Salazar, who had backing from the church, together with an entire raft of Latin American fascist dictatorships.

As for the "modern Labour Party" suppressing religion – your trolling is miles off the mark tonight. Not pay enough attention in church this morning?

Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:05 pm  

Mintball wrote:

Hitler was religion and used religious hatred as a weapon (playing the old 'Christ-killers' bit about the Jews). The Nazis were supported, at differing times, by assorted Christian churches – and also by the World Zionist Council.

Conveniently, you 'forget' the likes of Franco and Salazar, who had backing from the church, together with an entire raft of Latin American fascist dictatorships.

As for the "modern Labour Party" suppressing religion – your trolling is miles off the mark tonight. Not pay enough attention in church this morning?

I was talking about the mass, mass murderers. Mao and Stalin were streets ahead of Hitler.

The chattering classes in the modern Labour Party seem to me enthusiasts when it comes to promoting secularism.

Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:37 pm  

Dally wrote:

The chattering classes in the modern Labour Party seem to me enthusiasts when it comes to promoting secularism.

Promoting a secular state does not equal suppression of religion beyond its interference in state matters.

Re: The Guides : Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:04 pm  

cod'ead wrote: Got a list of people killed on religious grounds? It's the easiest thing in the world to jump in with the crowd and hurl rhetoric at religion from the peanut gallery. During the Catholic Church's approx 2,000 year history it has committed many crimes and I have no interest in condoning them. That said, it is entirely incorrect to suggest it hasn't, on many occasions, served a positive social influence. For instance, I find it laughable that you use scientific successes in medicine (omitting the fact that many of the greatest advances in science were funded by and for the military) as a club with which to beat religion (the Gatling Gun was created by who again?) whilst, I guess, forgetting the more than trivial point that if it weren't for the efforts of religion in protecting priceless scientific texts (going back to the Romans and Greeks) from being burned by the barbarians we might well be living in mud huts today. Atheist zealots are all the same. It's less about what they say than what they don't say. For instance, mintball confidently stakes her claim about the links between politics and violence in the 20th century (although she's having little success in proving WWII was influenced to any great extent by religion - aside from Hitler's pathological hatred of Jews). Her last sentence mentions "an entire raft of Latin American fascist dictatorships". But she is curiously silent on the role South American churches of all descriptions played in opposing brutal US-backed terrorist forces such as Reagan's Contras. Is it because she hasn't heard of the likes of Oscar Romero and/or Liberation Theology, or is she simply unable to give credit where credit is due?

cod'ead wrote: Got a list of people killed on religious grounds? It's the easiest thing in the world to jump in with the crowd and hurl rhetoric at religion from the peanut gallery. During the Catholic Church's approx 2,000 year history it has committed many crimes and I have no interest in condoning them. That said, it is entirely incorrect to suggest it hasn't, on many occasions, served a positive social influence. For instance, I find it laughable that you use scientific successes in medicine (omitting the fact that many of the greatest advances in science were funded by and for the military) as a club with which to beat religion (the Gatling Gun was created by who again?) whilst, I guess, forgetting the more than trivial point that if it weren't for the efforts of religion in protecting priceless scientific texts (going back to the Romans and Greeks) from being burned by the barbarians we might well be living in mud huts today. Atheist zealots are all the same. It's less about what they say than what they don't say. For instance, mintball confidently stakes her claim about the links between politics and violence in the 20th century (although she's having little success in proving WWII was influenced to any great extent by religion - aside from Hitler's pathological hatred of Jews). Her last sentence mentions "an entire raft of Latin American fascist dictatorships". But she is curiously silent on the role South American churches of all descriptions played in opposing brutal US-backed terrorist forces such as Reagan's Contras. Is it because she hasn't heard of the likes of Oscar Romero and/or Liberation Theology, or is she simply unable to give credit where credit is due?

Re: The Guides : Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:31 am  

Big Graeme wrote:

Promoting a secular state does not equal suppression of religion beyond its interference in state matters.

You are, of course, absolutely correct.

Also, no-one in this discussion in this forum has suggested that people should be prevented from following whatever religion they choose.

I would argue that secularism (as opposed to any one religion being "The" religion of a country) offers the greatest freedom to choose one's own religious or non-religious path.

So far, no one in this thread has produced the slightest shred of evidence that the decline of Christian belief and/or Church attendance has led to worse behaviour or declining morals overall. All we have heard is echoingly empty rhetoric stating it to be so.
But we should't be surprised at that, religious belief is not evidence-based.

Re: The Guides : Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:42 am  

Mugwump wrote:

...

Atheist zealots are all the same. It's less about what they say than what they don't say.

"All the same" eh?
Where no evidence has been found it is far more sensible to admit it than to insist that a wishful guess is not disprovable.

Re: The Guides : Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:19 am  

Mugwump wrote: ... Atheist zealots are all the same. It's less about what they say than what they don't say. For instance, mintball confidently stakes her claim about the links between politics and violence in the 20th century (although she's having little success in proving WWII was influenced to any great extent by religion - aside from Hitler's pathological hatred of Jews). Her last sentence mentions "an entire raft of Latin American fascist dictatorships". But she is curiously silent on the role South American churches of all descriptions played in opposing brutal US-backed terrorist forces such as Reagan's Contras. Is it because she hasn't heard of the likes of Oscar Romero and/or Liberation Theology, or is she simply unable to give credit where credit is due? I didn't say that "WWII was influenced to any great extent by religion". Try to read properly next time. I am well aware of liberation theology. I am also well aware – and have pointed out more than once – that the Catholic hierarchy rejected it and, indeed, did sweet FA to challenge (or help priests on the ground) challenge Latin American fascism – unlike communist eastern Europe. Indeed, there are questions about the new pope and whether he even shopped two priests with liberation theological stances to the dictatorship.

Mugwump wrote: ... Atheist zealots are all the same. It's less about what they say than what they don't say. For instance, mintball confidently stakes her claim about the links between politics and violence in the 20th century (although she's having little success in proving WWII was influenced to any great extent by religion - aside from Hitler's pathological hatred of Jews). Her last sentence mentions "an entire raft of Latin American fascist dictatorships". But she is curiously silent on the role South American churches of all descriptions played in opposing brutal US-backed terrorist forces such as Reagan's Contras. Is it because she hasn't heard of the likes of Oscar Romero and/or Liberation Theology, or is she simply unable to give credit where credit is due? I didn't say that "WWII was influenced to any great extent by religion". Try to read properly next time. I am well aware of liberation theology. I am also well aware – and have pointed out more than once – that the Catholic hierarchy rejected it and, indeed, did sweet FA to challenge (or help priests on the ground) challenge Latin American fascism – unlike communist eastern Europe. Indeed, there are questions about the new pope and whether he even shopped two priests with liberation theological stances to the dictatorship.