Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:12 am  

Kosh wrote:

Your experience is remarkably similar to mine over almost the exact same period of time (I'm 50). I can't currently see myself voting for any of the three main parties and most of the fringe parties are either deeply unpleasant or pointless. Often both.

I'm going to have to find one somewhere though. I can't bring myself to abstain in a General Election.

In which case vote for a minority party whose key message is something you believe in (eg Green if you are concerned with the natural world / environment, UKIP if you are anti-EU, etc). Do not consider it a wasted vote.

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:18 am  

I'm going to be voting Labour, probably. I have only ever voted Labour or Lib Dem, and the Lib Dems will never get another vote from me at any level.

I don't think Labour did too much wrong domestically during the Blair/Brown years, if you conveniently forget about the whole Iraq kerfuffle. The global financial collapse caught most people/governments with their pants down, and it'd have been just as severe for the people of this country under any colour of government. I do think the Labour party would have been far less inclined to use the disaster to drive through an unpleasant ideological agenda of raping the poor, though. So, on that basis alone, I'll probably vote for them.

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:52 am  

Rock God X wrote:

... I don't think Labour did too much wrong domestically during the Blair/Brown years, if you conveniently forget about the whole Iraq kerfuffle ...

They did nothing to halt the privatisation and deregulation agenda of the Conservative years, though. They did, as many have pointed out, effectively build the bridge that is now allowing the current government to dismantle the NHS.

They didn't start these processes, but they continued them.

So for instance, we now have the government intending to close down the A&E and maternity departments at a massive hospital like Lewisham – because three PFI hospitals in a different hospital trust area are in massive, massive financial trouble almost entirely because of PFI.

On a wider level, we have a mainstream political class that, if not ideologically wedded to neo-liberal extremism, is terrified of upsetting big business and the bulk of a media that supports the supranational corporatocracy and its agenda, and hysterically spreads lies and knee-jerking myth to back that up.

And thus, unfortunately, to larges swathes of the population that swallow this, hook, line and sinker.

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:07 am  

Mintball wrote:

They did nothing to halt the privatisation and deregulation agenda of the Conservative years, though. They did, as many have pointed out, effectively build the bridge that is now allowing the current government to dismantle the NHS.

They didn't start these processes, but they continued them.

So for instance, we now have the government intending to close down the A&E and maternity departments at a massive hospital like Lewisham – because three PFI hospitals in a different hospital trust area are in massive, massive financial trouble almost entirely because of PFI.

On a wider level, we have a mainstream political class that, if not ideologically wedded to neo-liberal extremism, is terrified of upsetting big business and the bulk of a media that supports the supranational corporatocracy and its agenda, and hysterically spreads lies and knee-jerking myth to back that up.

And thus, unfortunately, to larges swathes of the population that swallow this, hook, line and sinker.

Perhaps I ought to have started that sentence with, "Compared to the current government..."

I agree with your comments regarding the political class as a whole, but on balance, I still think Labour are the best of a bad bunch.

[DaveO]

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:16 am  

Scooter Nik wrote:

In recent years - probably since about 1990 - I've consistently voted LibDem as I felt i couldn't trust Blair, or laterly Brown as I didn't see them as representing anything other then a very small area of interest to them.
Now I can't see myself voting in the next election. Tories? No, they've dragged us to the bottom of the gutter than the Labour party dropped us into. LibDem? Nope, they've destroyed any credibility they had. Labour? See first comment. UKIP? Hahahahahahahahah.... A joke party that will implode after the next election, or when Farange walks away. Whichever comes first.

I honestly don't see a viable party in British politics any more.

The touble is the more people who have the same view as yourself the more likely we are to get another Tory government. My Grandad was a local Labour councilor and one time Mayor in Hindley near Wigan and despite the area being a staunch Labour area he never took the Labour vote for granted. His view was that Tories always vote. There is a core of Tory support that always turns out and this in my opinion is true.

from what you have said I am pretty sure you don't believe the Labour party would continue the thinly disguised assault on the welfare state that has been undertaken under the guise of necessary austerity cuts. If we get another five years of the Tories, especially in a majority government the NHS will be well and truly a thing of the past.

Andy Burnham and his views on what he would do with the NHS is therefore in my view reason enough alone to vote Labour for anyone. The party is far from perfect and as has been pointed out "new labour" was as wedded to neocon politics as any of them but the alternative is even worse IMO.

With the first past the post system we have voting for fringe parties IS a wasted vote. We are stuck with a poor choice but I would have thought the blatant and deliberate dismantling of the welfare state undertaken by the Tories while the Lib Dems sit meekly by is enough to vote them out and the only way to do that us vote Labour.

[Kosh]

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:19 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

I'm going to be voting Labour, probably. I have only ever voted Labour or Lib Dem, and the Lib Dems will never get another vote from me at any level.

I don't think Labour did too much wrong domestically during the Blair/Brown years, if you conveniently forget about the whole Iraq kerfuffle. The global financial collapse caught most people/governments with their pants down, and it'd have been just as severe for the people of this country under any colour of government. I do think the Labour party would have been far less inclined to use the disaster to drive through an unpleasant ideological agenda of raping the poor, though. So, on that basis alone, I'll probably vote for them.

I've likewise only ever voted Labour or LibDem. My problem is that Labour started the processes which have lead to ridiculous fees for higher education and creeping privatisation of the NHS. They lost my vote when they introduced student fees and they've done nothing since to incline me to reverse that decision. The LibDems are off the agenda for obvious reasons. At the moment I'm left with the Greens as the only palatable alternative and the last time I read one of their manifestos it was a joke.

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:58 pm  

Kosh wrote:

I've likewise only ever voted Labour or LibDem. My problem is that Labour started the processes which have lead to ridiculous fees for higher education and creeping privatisation of the NHS. They lost my vote when they introduced student fees and they've done nothing since to incline me to reverse that decision. The LibDems are off the agenda for obvious reasons. At the moment I'm left with the Greens as the only palatable alternative and the last time I read one of their manifestos it was a joke.

I look at it this way:

There are two parties that have a realistic shout of securing a majority. If I don't vote for one of these parties, I'm effectively wasting my vote (given that I won't ever vote Lib Dem again). Out of the two, I'll be voting for the one that is less likely to shaft the average man in the street in a bid to make things better for the richest few per cent.

Labour are far, far from perfect, but they're the best choice available if you don't want to see a Tory majority.

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:26 pm  

Until I moved down here, I'd only ever voted Labour, even when living in Cottingham (staunch tory) but I soon realised that a Labour vote down here really is a wasted vote, so switched to LibDem. The incumbent has managed to scrape through at each of the last three elections and much as I hate the Quisling, bearded, fat bastad that is David Heath, the alternative to him would've been Rees-Mogg's sibling Anunziata and that was unthinkable. So come 2015, Heath will probably get my vote again.

I also imagine there will be increasing numbers in the nation who will vote ABC - Anyone But Cameron

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:20 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

I look at it this way:

There are two parties that have a realistic shout of securing a majority. If I don't vote for one of these parties, I'm effectively wasting my vote (given that I won't ever vote Lib Dem again). Out of the two, I'll be voting for the one that is less likely to shaft the average man in the street in a bid to make things better for the richest few per cent.

Labour are far, far from perfect, but they're the best choice available if you don't want to see a Tory majority.

Huge amount of truth in this.

Although at present, I live in one of those areas where you could pin a red/blue/yellow rosette on a monkey and it would get in. So in a way, I have the luxury of being able to vote in a way that does not demand tactical voting. Makes bugger-all difference, though.

[Kosh]

Re: UK loses triple A rating : Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:10 pm  

Rock God X wrote:

I look at it this way:

There are two parties that have a realistic shout of securing a majority. If I don't vote for one of these parties, I'm effectively wasting my vote (given that I won't ever vote Lib Dem again). Out of the two, I'll be voting for the one that is less likely to shaft the average man in the street in a bid to make things better for the richest few per cent.

Labour are far, far from perfect, but they're the best choice available if you don't want to see a Tory majority.

Oh aye - I'm aware of the pragmatic position. It might be that come election time I'll put my principles to one side, hold my nose, and vote Labour for the very reasons you outline. I won't be happy about it though. Labour may do less damage in general but by introducing charges for higher education they enabled the current Government to blight an entire generation with a lifetime of debt. Since that includes both of my kids you'll have to forgive me if I take it rather personally.