Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:58 pm  

Dally wrote:

But if he was in the UK system to get £30,000 in hand the NI would be higher!

Yes it would, but he doesn't have that he only earns £30,000.
So that's what we work on.
He would earn £30,000 gross in the UK.
He earns £30,000 gross in Dubai, not more.

The comparison being made is what does he get for his £30,000 under their tax regime and what does he get for the same wage under ours.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:13 pm  

He would be unlikely to earn the same in the UK - each place will have its market rate.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:24 pm  

Dally wrote:

He would be unlikely to earn the same in the UK - each place will have its market rate.

That's very true, but for this particular paper exercise we are comparing the same figure.
Indeed, because he would possibly,as you say, earn less in the UK , then this makes JC's case even more.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:51 am  

Dally wrote:

It's a bargain because "someone" else is paying for a good part of it - which I guess was rather the point DubaiRL was making?

Yes - I'm glad you're catching up, social provisions such as healthcare, pensions and education work so well because EVERYONE pays at the point of earning and those who earn more pay more, and in doing so EVERYONE in the country benefits even if you have no children to educate, never get ill in your life and die before you need a pension.

Ironic really that Dubai also have a very good national health service but its not available to non-nationals hence every web site for ex-pats that you look at can't emphasise strongly enough the absolute need for very comprehensive health insurance although some would argue, like the Republicans in the USA, that THAT alone is the reason they go there, the need to feel independent from state control and taxation.

In related issues I see that Jim Davidson has sneaked back into the country to earn some money, probably can't make a living in Dubai with his brand of racism although I would have thought his views on women would be pure gold in the middle east.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:53 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Yes - I'm glad you're catching up, social provisions such as healthcare, pensions and education work so well because EVERYONE pays at the point of earning and those who earn more pay more, and in doing so EVERYONE in the country benefits even if you have no children to educate, never get ill in your life and die before you need a pension.

It's when you realise how difficult it is to get this point across that you realise how successful (whether misquoted or not) the entire 'there is no such thing as society' things has been.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 7:04 am  

Mintball wrote:

It's when you realise how difficult it is to get this point across that you realise how successful (whether misquoted or not) the entire 'there is no such thing as society' things has been.

I know

This propaganda stuff really works doesn't it, in the USA the Republicans (especially) have a deep inbuilt mistrust of central government and some of them take the self-reliance mantra to extremes, I've mentioned it before but in conversations with scholars of the Brigham Young University, who admittedly have other religious reasons to almost declare independance for Utah, use the word "socialist" as an insult, as though its a bad thing for a national government to care for its citizens and they seem a little unsure what their national government is actually there for at all other than one day to crush them all, hence the need for personal armament - they are an amazing breed of people to converse with, absolutely normal on the surface but paranoid to the extreme when you scratch away at them.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:14 am  

If we use JC's £2,600 pa the two principal benefits he cited were NHS and pensions. They cost well over 4 times employee NI contributions, so to make the comparison with Dubai R's $1,500 *which would of course be age dependent) the cost would be c. £11,000pa each year over a working life. To get a state pension would require contributions of c.£1,000pa but lets double that to £2,000 to play safe. So his costs £3,000 pa ours costs £11,000 pa. OK the level of medical provision may differ but is it nearly 4 times better? Yes, the system works for most people but that's because we are neo-Communists!

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:05 am  

Dally wrote:

If we use JC's £2,600 pa the two principal benefits he cited were NHS and pensions. They cost well over 4 times employee NI contributions, so to make the comparison with Dubai R's $1,500 *which would of course be age dependent) the cost would be c. £11,000pa each year over a working life. To get a state pension would require contributions of c.£1,000pa but lets double that to £2,000 to play safe. So his costs £3,000 pa ours costs £11,000 pa. OK the level of medical provision may differ but is it nearly 4 times better? Yes, the system works for most people but that's because we are neo-Communists!

I haven't a clue what you are babbling on about now or where you are getting your figures from so lets boil it down to its original discussion point - would you be happier in the UK if you had no deductions made from your salary or income but instead had to make all of your provisions for a health and social welfare yourself with the aid of for-profit insurance companies ?

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:44 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

I haven't a clue what you are babbling on about now or where you are getting your figures from so lets boil it down to its original discussion point - would you be happier in the UK if you had no deductions made from your salary or income but instead had to make all of your provisions for a health and social welfare yourself with the aid of for-profit insurance companies ?

A particularly interesting question in Dally's case as he has a daughter with long-term care and support needs. One wonders what the insurance etc costs would be in relation to her.

Re: Should those with a income of more than 80k pay for scho : Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:10 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

I haven't a clue what you are babbling on about now or where you are getting your figures from so lets boil it down to its original discussion point - would you be happier in the UK if you had no deductions made from your salary or income but instead had to make all of your provisions for a health and social welfare yourself with the aid of for-profit insurance companies ?

Why do people geT so emotional on here? I am not expressing an opinion just laying out the numbers. Employees NI raise less than £50 billion pa. The cost of the NHS plus state pensions is about £230 billion+. So, we need to multiply the £2,600 NI cost by over 4 x (hence the £11,000). To get a state pension, which I guess is c. £120 per week (£6,240 pa) you'd need pension savings of £125,000+. Over 45 years work that would equate to £2,777 pa. But over that time you'd expect growth in the investment and even at a very modest % growth £2,000pa should cover it.