RIP Hugo Chavez : Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:27 pm  

Would that any "Western" leader lay claim to packing so much into a short life

Would that any "Western" leader lay claim to packing so much into a short life

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:18 pm  

A link to Wikipedia, which can be edited by anyone.

Standby for a lecture on the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:11 am  

The Video Ref wrote:

A link to Wikipedia, which can be edited by anyone.

Standby for a lecture on the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'.

Aww has our closet fascist had his ass whopped again? But your of course correct, I obviously didn't make too good a job on the first edit. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll update it with: "One of Chavez's enduring thoughts was that Video Ref is a 2@"

No one could deny that Chavez helped lift many of his countrymen out of abject poverty by nationalising industries that were bleeding resources away from Venezuela.

He will polarise opinion of him but I doubt anyone could deny that the majority of Venezuelans are better off now than before he came to power

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:34 am  

cod'ead wrote:

Aww has our closet fascist had his ass whopped again? But your of course correct, I obviously didn't make too good a job on the first edit. Give me a couple of minutes and I'll update it with: "One of Chavez's enduring thoughts was that Video Ref is a 2@"

No one could deny that Chavez helped lift many of his countrymen out of abject poverty by nationalising industries that were bleeding resources away from Venezuela.

He will polarise opinion of him but I doubt anyone could deny that the majority of Venezuelans are better off now than before he came to power

Superficially perhaps, but Michael Moynihan offers up a for a more objective appraisal of El Comandante's Legacy.....


Chávez presided over a political epoch flush with money and lorded over a society riven by fear, deep political divisions, and ultraviolence. Consider the latest crime statistics from Observatorio Venezolano de la Violencia, which reckons that 2012 saw an astonishing 21,692 murders in the country—in a population of 29 million. Last year, I accompanied a Venezuelan journalist on his morning rounds at Caracas’s only morgue to count the previous night’s murders. As the number of dead ballooned, the Chávez regime simply stopped releasing murder statistics to the media.

All of this could have been predicted, and wasn’t particularly surprising from a president who believed that one must take the side of any enemy of the “empire.” That Zimbabwe’s dictator Robert Mugabe was a “freedom fighter,” or that Belarusian dictator Alexander Lukashenko presided over “a model of a social state.” Saddam Hussein was a “brother,” Bashar al-Assad had the “same political vision” as the Bolivarian revolutionaries in Venezuela. He saw in the madness of Col. Gaddafi an often overlooked “brilliance” (“I ask God to protect the life of our brother Muammar Gaddafi”). The brutal terrorist Carlos the Jackal, who praised the 9/11 attacks from his French jail cell, was “a good friend.” He praised and supported FARC, the terrorist organization operating in neighboring Colombia. The list is endless.

His was a poisonous influence on the region, one rah-rahed by radical fools who desired to see a thumb jammed in America’s eye, while not caring a lick for its effect on ordinary Venezuelans. In his terrific new book (fortuitously timed to publish this week) Comandante: Hugo Chávez's Venezuela, The Guardian’s Rory Carroll summed up the legacy of Chávez’s Venezuela as “a land of power cuts, broken escalators, shortages, queues, insecurity, bureaucracy, unreturned calls, unfilled holes, uncollected garbage.” One could add to that list grinding poverty, massive corruption, censorship, and intimidation.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:48 am  

I certainly am not about to be adding to any hagiography of Chavez, but that "grinding poverty" – really? "The United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America (ECLAC) found that from 2002 to 2010, poverty in Venezuela was reduced by 20.8 percent, dropping from 48.6 percent to 27.8 percent, while extreme poverty decreased from 22.2 percent to 10.7 percent. "Chavez also made impressive inroads in terms of closing the gap between Venezuela’s rich and poor. According to the ECLAC report, Venezuela has Latin America’s lowest Gini coefficient at 0.394. The closer the Gini coefficient is to zero, the closer a country is to total socio-economic equality." From this report – which is far from hagiographic.

I certainly am not about to be adding to any hagiography of Chavez, but that "grinding poverty" – really? "The United Nations Economic Commission for Latin America (ECLAC) found that from 2002 to 2010, poverty in Venezuela was reduced by 20.8 percent, dropping from 48.6 percent to 27.8 percent, while extreme poverty decreased from 22.2 percent to 10.7 percent. "Chavez also made impressive inroads in terms of closing the gap between Venezuela’s rich and poor. According to the ECLAC report, Venezuela has Latin America’s lowest Gini coefficient at 0.394. The closer the Gini coefficient is to zero, the closer a country is to total socio-economic equality." From this report – which is far from hagiographic.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:28 pm  

rumpelstiltskin wrote:

Superficially perhaps, but Michael Moynihan offers up a for a more objective appraisal of El Comandante's Legacy...

It is an entirely negative appraisal and, as it excludes (for example) the enormous moving of citizens out of poverty, cannot be considered to be in any way "objective" at all.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:57 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

It is an entirely negative appraisal and, as it excludes (for example) the enormous moving of citizens out of poverty, cannot be considered to be in any way "objective" at all.

I suggest that, on the basis of what is quoted above, it doesn't merely exclude the issue of poverty, but claims that "grinding poverty" is a result of Chavez's years in power.

Which, on the basis of (for instance) what I have posted, is a downright lie.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:52 pm  

Mintball wrote:

I suggest that, on the basis of what is quoted above, it doesn't merely exclude the issue of poverty, but claims that "grinding poverty" is a result of Chavez's years in power.

Which, on the basis of (for instance) what I have posted, is a downright lie.

Quite so.
His social programmes for healthcare and education will also be ignored ... or condemned as communist.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:00 pm  

El Barbudo wrote:

Quite so.
His social programmes for healthcare and education will also be ignored ... or condemned as communist.

Absolutely.

Re: RIP Hugo Chavez : Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:21 am  

Bolivarianism in action. He might be a power-hungry oil billionaire with a questionable human rights record, but he's OUR power-hungry oil billionaire with a questionable human rights record.

Bolivarianism in action. He might be a power-hungry oil billionaire with a questionable human rights record, but he's OUR power-hungry oil billionaire with a questionable human rights record.