: Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:15 pm  

Harborne Saint wrote:

Also backed by the fact that we are not a "big physical team". Our pack matched up against the other top 4/5 packs would look small - I'm not saying we don't make that up in skill and technique - however, in bad conditions, good little uns tend to get done by good big uns. Leeds' pack is considerable more sizaeble than ours and they are complinented by nippy backs.

I think we need to look at this as we go forward. Tony P is a good addition in this area - size and skill shown nicely so far - perhaps future recruitment may look to add to the size element of the sqaud further? I could see us adding a new Maurie in the next 18months (rough South Sea Islander gem to polish up) and if Lyon wasn't available for a centre spot, a beast in the mould of Kev Iro would be a possible alternative? I don't want us to turn into Bratfut but I do want us to be a flexible team that can win in all conditions.

We may not be a big pack to we have a mobile pack. All our forwards get get around the pitch and most can play lots of minutes.

: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:39 pm  

Tony Soprano wrote:

The two teams are very evenly matched and whoever plays best on the day wins, it has nothing to do with the weather and it was never used by any Saints fans as an excuse until the last two grand finals.

It's a poor excuse, but the Saints are alot better in the dry. We don't adapt as well in the rain as Leeds do, and that's our undoing. Champion teams should be able to adapt, and that's why we're second best to Leeds right now. Saints need to find a way to win in all situations not just when it's cracking the flags.

: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:52 pm  

Dux wrote:

I don't think that's fair on Leeds. They're a very skillful side.

I didn't say they weren't. I was speaking about default attacking styles. Even that god of RL pundetry Phil Clarke agrees with me (so there!).

Blobby is saying that in the dry our attack is exceptional, but Leeds have a more rounded game that allows them to adapt to varying conditions more easily than we can, and I think he's right.

I think that is being unfair to Saints. I think Saints have a very rounded game (except their in-field kicking game could improve; and did so noticeably on Friday I have to say) but their default style is better suited to dry conditions.

I was actually criticising neither team but rather observing the difference in play and thinking it more a question of style than skill. I don't see either team as more or less adaptable or skillful than the other, just different (one reason for the poor showing at the world cup maybe?).

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:55 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

On a dry pitch, the Saints are almost unplayable in Super League. Nobody can match our speed and skill, not even Leeds. When it rains, our big strengths (speed at the ptb mainly) are taken away and Leeds get us in other areas. .

Sorry buddy, thats a pile of c**k for 3 reasons.

1) Our sucess has been built on good yardage up the middle and scooting this is far more adaptable in the rain than if you rely on an expansive game.

2) Our sucess has also been built on strong defence which gives us a significant advantage in tight games in poor conditions.

3) Leeds are an expansive team who throw plenty of offloads, this is much more difficult to get away with in the rain.

When it was know that there was going to be rain in the GF I was made up as IMO it suits us far more.

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:02 pm  

saintc wrote:

Sorry buddy, thats a pile of c**k for 3 reasons.

It's fooking not!

Our main strength comes from speed around the ruck. Our most dangerous players attacking are Pryce, Roby and Cunningham who all scoot from dummy half and hang around the PTB area. In the dry weather our speed at the ruck makes us a huge amount of yards creating gaps for our mobile forwards such as Gilmour, Flannery and Wilkin. Sure we have other weapons such as Gidley and Long who are adaptable, but our big threats come at acting half. In the rain, it's obviously going to be slower.

Leeds play a different game. They like to offload the ball and get the ball wide, particularly to their back rowers who cause damage. Leeds have a bigger pack than us, which means in the rain they are more adaptable to the conditions.

We can play in the rain, I never once said we couldn't, but Leeds are better suited to it, as they have bigger pack.

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:42 pm  

Christ we lose two games against a very good Leeds side and now all of a sudden we can't win in the rain. What a load of rubbish.

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:56 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

It's fooking not!

Our main strength comes from speed around the ruck. Our most dangerous players attacking are Pryce, Roby and Cunningham who all scoot from dummy half and hang around the PTB area. In the dry weather our speed at the ruck makes us a huge amount of yards creating gaps for our mobile forwards such as Gilmour, Flannery and Wilkin. Sure we have other weapons such as Gidley and Long who are adaptable, but our big threats come at acting half. In the rain, it's obviously going to be slower.

Leeds play a different game. They like to offload the ball and get the ball wide, particularly to their back rowers who cause damage. Leeds have a bigger pack than us, which means in the rain they are more adaptable to the conditions.

We can play in the rain, I never once said we couldn't, but Leeds are better suited to it, as they have bigger pack.

Agree

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:57 pm  

McClennan wrote:

Christ we lose two games against a very good Leeds side and now all of a sudden we can't win in the rain. What a load of rubbish.

According to young Mr Wellens in his testimonial glossy, they didn't play to the conditions and that was their problem. Of course, we no doubt could have told them that at the time, and some of us did (loudly and with dull regularity) but there you go.

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:57 pm  

saintc wrote:

Sorry buddy, thats a pile of c**k for 3 reasons.

1) Our sucess has been built on good yardage up the middle and scooting this is far more adaptable in the rain than if you rely on an expansive game.

2) Our sucess has also been built on strong defence which gives us a significant advantage in tight games in poor conditions.

3) Leeds are an expansive team who throw plenty of offloads, this is much more difficult to get away with in the rain.

When it was know that there was going to be rain in the GF I was made up as IMO it suits us far more.

I,m not sure if you are entirely correct here.

For the last 10 years Saints have relied on fast play the balls and hard fast grounds to keep momentum over long periods of time, when this happens they are unbeatable.

Last couple of years the play the balls are much slower and Leeds are very good at slowing down this area especially in bad weather.

The one thing that Saints still have over other teams is "speed of thought" when attacking, we don,t have the fastest backline but we do have the ability to suddenly spark into life which makes us an unpredictable exciting team, which is the saints way.

If the weather is bad and Leeds keep it tight with a good kicking game, Leeds will win.
If we get good weather and open Rugby I,d put my money on Saints.

: Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:27 pm  

Blobbynator wrote:

On a dry pitch, the Saints are almost unplayable in Super League. Nobody can match our speed and skill, not even Leeds.

Leeds are a quicker team than us. The current Saints backline is one of the slowest I've seen in years.

When it rains, our big strengths (speed at the ptb mainly) are taken away and Leeds get us in other areas. They are the more adaptable team IMO.

They are taken away because a) their distance kicking is ahead of ours (a problem which manifested itself when Martyn retired and is no further to being solved now as it was then) and b) they tackle like demons. Long cannot be relied upon for kicks upwards of 40m. He simply does not have the leg strength. Why we insist upon asking him to do that which he is incapable of is a mystery.

Over a season we'll struggle to match Leeds as our squad is small and the depth is covered by inexperienced youngsters. Whether we have the stamina to win the Grand Final or Challenge Cup, who knows. I just hope it's dry on April 5th.

The rain doesn't help, but it's not the insurmountable problem you're making it out to be. The more people purport this myth the greater its chances of taking root and developing into self-fulfilling prophecy - a psychological block (it may already have). Saints have played well in the rain against good defences in the past. It needn't be difficult. You simply adjust your tactics to suit the conditions. In our previous matches with Leeds one of the major issues was ball security: players either coughing up the ball (in many cases these were unforced errors) or passing when the pass isn't on. Leeds, OTOH, played safety first rugby until the game was out of sight. As far as I am aware, the Rhinos don't have buckets instead of hands, which means the problem is rectifiable without the aid of new players. Another problem area is the short kicking game near the line. Under Anderson (and Millward) we have consistently placed greater value on kicking to score rather than kicking to retain possession. Leeds aren't similarly minded. They are quite happy to settle for two, three or four repeat sets because they know it will drain energy reserves which will lead to opportunities later on when the defence tires. We've been murdered this way in both GFs. Again, solving this problem requires no new investment in players - merely an adjustment in mindset. And while we're on the subject of kicking let me mention the woeful drop-out kicker that is Paul Wellens. If his is the longest drop out at the club we might as well give up. It's costing us a good ten to fifteen metres each time we ground the ball in our own in goal.