Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:55 pm  

I agree with the Wenger comparisons that have been made. My big concern is that we seem to be satisfied with second or "improving" - there's only one metric that counts - winning. In the last 4 seasons we haven't won anything. LLS is nice but let's be honest the top rank trophies are the CC and SL GF.

The culture of the club is good but seems a bit soft to me - we don't seem to hate losing or fear failure as much as Wane's Wigan.

The reality is that we need to win a major trophy this season or we need to start thinking about a change. At the minute it feels like an Arsenal situation where the manager is so in charge he's lost all threat to his position.

I'm also wary of reading too much into last weekend - we played well in the similar game in 15 and had a stinker of a season.

Anyway - let's hope we take off from last Saturday and are chanting Smith Forever at OT in October!

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:11 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

What always amuses me is some of those who have such a "accept nothing less than winning" mentality are the same types of old guard fan who will have us believe that the great team of the 80s with Les Boyd, Mike Gregory and co in, was some kind of benchmark of greatness.

In reality, that team finished 3rd and 4th a couple of times but for much of the 1980s we were a mid table side that would get to the occasional final or semi final and lose. It wasn't just Wigan that were better than us though, we were behind the likes of Widnes and Saints.

Now maybe back in the old days Warrington was not as big a club as it is today and so that 80s team was seen as plucky mid-table heroes who could front up and give the big teams a spirited fight even if they ended up defeated.

But I think if you have such high standards that anything less than the title is a failure then you shouldn't be glorifying that Warrington team you should be telling us about Shaun Edwards, Ellery Hanley, guys who actually were relentless winners.

Perhaps I can help with your confusion.

The team in the 80's which you refer to was the team to last win silverware for Warrington until recently. The Premiership in '86 and John Player in 91, we won nothing again until 2009, nearly 20 barren years later. It is right that that team is celebrated as they achieved that against the odds being a club with a small support base and limited cash against a dominant Wigan. People who actually watched that side will need no reminding of how good it was.

However it is perfectly possible to hold a position now where one recognises the traits of serially successful clubs and, as the club are now in a position to compete financially with them, consider it reasonable to emulate the desire to win and exhibit winning cultures. We currently do not do that.

So you can see we can laud the team of the 80's and raise the question the winning attitude of the team which 30 years later is in a different space financially.

You can tell the winning attitude a mile away. Wigan would not stick with a coach who won nothing for 4 years, losing 4 finals, neither would Saints or Leeds. Simple as that really.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:16 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Perhaps I can help with your confusion.

The team in the 80's which you refer to was the team to last win silverware for Warrington until recently. The Premiership in '86 and John Player in 91, we won nothing again until 2009, nearly 20 barren years later. It is right that that team is celebrated as they achieved that against the odds being a club with a small support base and limited cash against a dominant Wigan. People who actually watched that side will need no reminding of how good it was.

However it is perfectly possible to hold a position now where one recognises the traits of serially successful clubs and, as the club are now in a position to compete financially with them, consider it reasonable to emulate the desire to win and exhibit winning cultures. We currently do not do that.

So you can see we can laud the team of the 80's and raise the question the winning attitude of the team which 30 years later is in a different space financially.

You can tell the winning attitude a mile away. Wigan would not stick with a coach who won nothing for 4 years, losing 4 finals, neither would Saints or Leeds. Simple as that really.

You're being very selective in your argument though. You can't claim that the LLS means nothing (not sure if you have, but most Smith detractors seem to be suggesting this), then say that the Premiership or Regal Trophy (as it was in '91) count as worth winning. And you've ignored the point that this side wasn't even second best-Widnes and others were ahead, and they had no more cash than us (and only better crowds as they were winning). In '86 Wigan were not a dominant force and their '85 cup win was their first in 20 years, whilst they hadn't won the league in 25. You can't retro fit their later dominance as a reason our team from this time didn't win more.

On the strength of trophies and finals, Smith's achievements even post the 3 cup wins is still ahead of the team in the mid/late 80s, and has been done in an era of the salary cap, with an aging team that needed re-building. I've said before, 2014-2015 will prove to this era the equivalent of our 1951-1952 period; I believe Smith can still lead us to a second peak similar to the mid-50s team. Keep the faith!

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:24 pm  

NtW wrote:

You're being very selective in your argument though. You can't claim that the LLS means nothing (not sure if you have, but most Smith detractors seem to be suggesting this), then say that the Premiership or Regal Trophy (as it was in '91) count as worth winning. And you've ignored the point that this side wasn't even second best-Widnes and others were ahead, and they had no more cash than us (and only better crowds as they were winning). In '86 Wigan were not a dominant force and their '85 cup win was their first in 20 years, whilst they hadn't won the league in 25. You can't retro fit their later dominance as a reason our team from this time didn't win more.

On the strength of trophies and finals, Smith's achievements even post the 3 cup wins is still ahead of the team in the mid/late 80s, and has been done in an era of the salary cap, with an aging team that needed re-building. I've said before, 2014-2015 will prove to this era the equivalent of our 1951-1952 period; I believe Smith can still lead us to a second peak similar to the mid-50s team. Keep the faith!

I am not comparing the teams of the 80s and the current one. That would not be fair based on the financial situations. All I am defending is that it's possible to recognise the achievements of those wins in 86 and 91 where a win at all costs attitude would be ridiculous, and now having different expectations of the team.

Smith has been wonderful for Warrington. The question was "is it time to part ways if we fail to win the GF in his 8th year". It seems to divide opinion. But as I've said, if we had the ruthless win at all costs attitude that Wigan, Leeds and Saints have then Smith would most likely have been replaced already.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:58 am  

TS built the best team in the league in 2011, it was honestly a travesty that team didn't get a chance to compete in the grand final, I haven't seen a better team win it since.

We were always heading for a rebuilding period, but throughout that period we have challenged. Ask Leeds how they have fared through theirs....

I was sat on a table at a charity do with TS tonight and the guy is just inspiring, there is no one else in SL I would want at the head of my club.

He's built again, this team is more than capable of winning a grand final, and it's the youngest team I've seen at Warrington for a long, long time. He's brought in young English players and he's managed to keep good British players at the club when other teams are seeing players disappear down under.

Yes he is well backed, yes plenty of money has been spent, but TS is the man that WILL land us a grand final. And more importantly, he's the sort of man I want leading my rugby team.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:03 am  

Alffi_7 wrote:

TS built the best team in the league in 2011, it was honestly a travesty that team didn't get a chance to compete in the grand final, I haven't seen a better team win it since..

Six years ago.

Alffi_7 wrote:

We were always heading for a rebuilding period, but throughout that period we have challenged. Ask Leeds how they have fared through theirs....

I would be very happy with Leed's achievements in the last 8 years. To compare is facile. So far they have had one duff season where they won nothing.

Alffi_7 wrote:

I was sat on a table at a charity do with TS tonight and the guy is just inspiring, there is no one else in SL I would want at the head of my club.

He's built again, this team is more than capable of winning a grand final, and it's the youngest team I've seen at Warrington for a long, long time. He's brought in young English players and he's managed to keep good British players at the club when other teams are seeing players disappear down under.

Yes he is well backed, yes plenty of money has been spent, but TS is the man that WILL land us a grand final. And more importantly, he's the sort of man I want leading my rugby team.

I don't dispute any of that. In fact you make my point for me. You are saying that in your case all that is more important than becoming serial winners.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Feb 23, 2017 1:31 pm  

its not the taking part that counts its the winning, second place is the first loser. and whilst some are happy to be the perennial under achievers many are not and accept that we have no god given right to win the gf but have the team to do so yet seem to fall short. in general the reason for our losses in the finals are very similar and we don't or have not adapted to them this is down to smith

its not fair that when something is done well or we have a good win then its down to ts and his great man management but when we lose its not his fault, its a player not making a pass or knock on that lost us the game. I laugh every time I read about us losing the gf because gidly did not make ONE pass.

getting to finals is part of becoming successful given the funds and players he has had available during his time here we should have won more and the buck stops with him and his selection and tactics

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Feb 23, 2017 2:29 pm  

I see the revisionists are out in force again. How has it not sunk in that we actually over achieved last year? The fact that we only had 2 front line props for virtually the whole season was a massive handicap.
As for "ruthless" Saints, their commitment to Cunningham would suggest the contrary.
Please note I have NOT mentioned any of the other injuries because to me the team dealt with them.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:45 pm  

NtW wrote:

And you've ignored the point that this side wasn't even second best-Widnes and others were ahead, and they had no more cash than us (and only better crowds as they were winning).

You're kidding to say wigan didnt have more cash than us ??
And Widnes were famous for spending what they didnt have, sure it got them two championships ( they had to wait 100 years for it though.) but When Dougie's cheque book moved to Leeds it left widnes in a right mess and a huge sell off of players and relegation followed and also yoyoing in and out of the second tier and playing in Northern rail cups etc

I wouldn't swap what we had or have for what widnes have had to endure.....

NtW wrote:

In '86 Wigan were not a dominant force and their '85 cup win was their first in 20 years, whilst they hadn't won the league in 25. You can't retro fit their later dominance as a reason our team from this time didn't win more.

they finished runners up in 86 and won the lancashire cup and JPS trophy i think that's fairly dominant. next season they lost two league games all year both to wire and won the league at canter with us and saints both 7 points behind them, they won the jps and lancs cup again. you can see why wire fans got/get excited at even getting near to this side that was on another level to everyone else.

people count the trophies we didn't win but I don't doubt for a minute in that era of Wigan dominance no other club was involved in more finals or semi finals than Warrington, and most of them defeats at the hands of the greatest team ever to play rugby league.

so feel free to rubbish it......i certainly remember when we beat wigan at wilderspool in 1997 it was a great win because we had just sacked Dorahy and were in a right mess, but it didnt feel like any of the wins over Wigan in the late 80's because the wigan team wasnt near the same quality.

Re: 2017 and Tony Smith : Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:04 pm  

I think Tony smith cops some unfair criticism at times because at the end of the day he got you to basically 3 finals last season (counting the hull vs Wire game for shield as one) you might of won only 1 out of 3 but at the end of the day there were 2 other teams challenging for everything (us and Hull) it's better than winning nothing and imo winning the league leaders shield is the biggest achievement because you've been the most consistent team all season. I'm 99% sure you'll win the grand final under Smith at some point, I'd be surprised if you don't win a trophy this season and every season apart from 2015 you've been close to winning something. This might be biased however but the bloke who said he wouldn't swap smith for any one, I guarantee Wane would win more at Wire than smith, you might not like him or his way of playing but at the end of the day he's the best coach in super league