Re: Mossop : Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:36 am  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

How can Mossop and Crosby be tired? Their minutes per game is very low.
I'm personally sick to death of "20 minute joes" who look as if they have just been on a SAS exercise after five minutes.
My nature is to give people the benefit of the doubt as I find most people do give their best but Mossop and Crosby have under performed all season.

I never mentioned Crosby. I think you understand the point that I was making about Mossop. He alone of all of our props I would excuse because of his injury problems over the last three years.

I'll never forget him coming back on at Wembley when his shoulder was busted. Credit in the bank I'd say. (It won't last forever, but an injury free season has to be top priority for Lee, then he can kick on with confidence).

Already in this thread people are criticising MMc. I tend to cut players plenty of slack if they've performed for us in the past, and by that I mean in GFs and CCFs. So if Lockers, Matty, MMc and Mossop are going through poor form, we live with it, in the knowledge that they've done it all before and will do so again.

Re: Mossop : Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:46 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

I never mentioned Crosby. I think you understand the point that I was making about Mossop. He alone of all of our props I would excuse because of his injury problems over the last three years.

I'll never forget him coming back on at Wembley when his shoulder was busted. Credit in the bank I'd say. (It won't last forever, but an injury free season has to be top priority for Lee, then he can kick on with confidence).

Already in this thread people are criticising MMc. I tend to cut players plenty of slack if they've performed for us in the past, and by that I mean in GFs and CCFs. So if Lockers, Matty, MMc and Mossop are going through poor form, we live with it, in the knowledge that they've done it all before and will do so again.

I can and do cut players slack for loss of form or mistakes they make during a game what I can't do is excuse lack of effort.
I genuinely do not like slating any player but our props most notably Mossop and Crosby and to a lesser degree Flower have been lamentable in attack and defence throughout this season.
I haven't been this angry since the days of Moran and I think what is really winding me up is that SW actually allows this lack of effort or lack of conditioning to continue.

I have on this thread and others mentioned what appears to be a total lack of conditioning presently within our props at the club maybe I should raise a separate thread on this subject. Call me an owd fart but personally if any player isn't capable of playing 80 minutes then he ain't fit full stop. You can tell me how the game has changed and how it is more physically demanding blah blah blah but you can't tell me that Roby, Peacock and Graham are supermen because they play or in the case of Peacock have played for 80 on a regular basis.
Personally I would not allow a player back on once he has been substituted. What we have now is a game full of lookalike robots who can bench press a London bus but are blowing out of their booty after 5 minutes. I may have had my epiphany on Friday night on the overall standard of the quality or lack of quality in our forwards.
Ooh I think I need to go and lye down in a darkened room

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:24 am  

Just on Maguire, its not as if he decided that playing without props is the way for all teams. The Rabbitohs last year had power right across the pack, with George and Sam Burgess key attacking weapons. They're not exactly lightweight this year either.

I'd say Maguire is probably very good at adjusting his gameplan to match his players - something a lot of coaches fail to achieve.

Also, its a bit rich calling Mossop an NRL player. His experience there amounted to very little before he got injured didn't it?

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:56 am  

Three appearances in the NRL I think it is

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:21 am  

Think you have a problem of size in the wigan pack though and the relation between fitness and bulk. We are playing too many 'smaller' players in powerful positions. we have and will continue to struggle in big games with the pairing of Farrell and bateman for example.

to the poster who mentioned making clubb fitter till he could play 70mins - you will likely then see him lose his effectiveness as the guy was a 13/centre before we bulked him up.

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:56 pm  

pk wrote:

Think you have a problem of size in the wigan pack though and the relation between fitness and bulk. We are playing too many 'smaller' players in powerful positions. we have and will continue to struggle in big games with the pairing of Farrell and bateman for example.

to the poster who mentioned making clubb fitter till he could play 70mins - you will likely then see him lose his effectiveness as the guy was a 13/centre before we bulked him up.

He'd bulked up prior to come here but I agree he's got bigger. I also agree its a fine balancing act between size and effectiveness but we need to work as hard as possible to ensure our best props are able to play longer minutes 'when required'. If a guy like Clubb is smashing it up I'd want to keep him on longer.

How they manage to get to that level I've not a clue but as a simple fan I see other props manage it so wonder why ours can't. I believe it's actually more a case of not being allowed to play longer minutes then not being able to.

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:57 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

He'd bulked up prior to come here but I agree he's got bigger. I also agree its a fine balancing act between size and effectiveness but we need to work as hard as possible to ensure our best props are able to play longer minutes 'when required'. If a guy like Clubb is smashing it up I'd want to keep him on longer.

How they manage to get to that level I've not a clue but as a simple fan I see other props manage it so wonder why ours can't. I believe it's actually more a case of not being allowed to play longer minutes then not being able to.

I agree, I keep reading that our pack is too small but I think it is the case they're just not being used effectively enough. Wane is slipping into Noble era-style subbing-by-the-clock and it isn't working. The starting front row end up off the field for a very long time and this, coupled with the amount of work our backs do getting us out of our own half, leads to some shocking stats from our props.

It doesn't need a massive overhaul to fix up. I've no problem with rotating forwards to keep them fresh, but I don't like seeing McIlorum, Crosby, Mossop, Flower sat down for 40 minutes at a time, which has happened in recent weeks, while he's probably done the opposite with Tautai and Patrick and left them on too long at times. We have also been guilty of overplaying with the props often getting involved in shift plays rather than just taking the ball in, a bit more patience when we've got the ball would solve a lot of our current problems IMO.

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:20 pm  

The time to judge the pack will be when Clubb comes back in and Gelling /Thornley return, allowing Joel Tomkins to revert to second row. Both Farrell and Bateman are very good players, but with both in the second row it leaves the pack a little lightweight.

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:11 pm  

Our second rowers are not the issue!

Re: Mossop : Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:32 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

The time to judge the pack will be when Clubb comes back in and Gelling /Thornley return, allowing Joel Tomkins to revert to second row. Both Farrell and Bateman are very good players, but with both in the second row it leaves the pack a little lightweight.

Time to judge will be at the end of the season ! A few twists and turns yet.