Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:16 am  

Far too much panic from Wigan fans in the ground and on social media last night. If anyone looked at the two teams and thought we should be beating them then they're

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:59 am  

Nogga wrote:

Far too much panic from Wigan fans in the ground and on social media last night. If anyone looked at the two teams and thought we should be beating them then they're

Beating? No. Competing? Yes!

We competed for about 10 minutes and after that there was only 1 team in the game.

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:01 pm  

exiled Warrior wrote:

Not that we were missing a full pack
Flower McIlorum Crosby
Farrell Tomkins
Lockers

leaving too many average/young players up against Warringtons first choice pack

Exactly right. Youngsters have to be brought in grdually, a few at a time, especially with the lack of reserves games. No team could cope with probably their top 6 earners out at the same time.

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:36 pm  

Geoff wrote:

Exactly right. Youngsters have to be brought in grdually, a few at a time, especially with the lack of reserves games. No team could cope with probably their top 6 earners out at the same time.

Geoff I have no problem in losing with a depleted side but the lack of urgency, pace, basic skills and zero and I mean zero attacking options should alarm me but now I just accept that we are an exceptionally poor outfit because that is what we are.
We could very easily be where Huddersfield are. In fact I'd say we are the worst performing team after HKR I have seen this year.
I accept the injuries but can't accept that Powell who was allegedly a half back can't or won't kick and he can't pass a ball into someone's bread basket on a half decent basis.
I can't accept Isa as a player. He ain't a forward in the memory of man and has still to make one and I mean one break this season. What the hell did we sign him for?
I can't accept that Burke & Sutton as a young thrusting professionals can just trundle in and hardly make any ground and seem totally incapable of doing more than 15 minute stints. These are supposedly our young guns who want a career in RL but do not show a tad of ability or a willingness to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Basically they play without balls. I want young bucks ripping into to teams our lot are timid and lack raw aggression that SW allegedly drums into them.
I can't accept that Tierney has a position of any sort. What does he do well? He has no apparent pace, can't catch a high ball and seems totally detached from all aspects of the game.
You mention 6 forwards missing the problem is that we will always have players missing due to injury and add the fact that SOL will never be a regular and MM can't play 80 minutes and has done nothing for over 2 seasons therefore, some of the lads who were on the pitch last night are effectively regulars.
Without Bateman we are a bottom 4 team without any shadow of a doubt in my eyes and even when some players get back we are most definitely not a top 4 team. I can go with that if I saw some semblance of green shoots I really could go with that but I just see numbingly boring, pedestrian and joyless rugby.
I'm not overreacting to last nights defeat because it was obvious we were never going to win and I can cope with that what I struggle with is that people assume it will get better when last season showed us we are a poor rugby team and I've seen or heard nothing that demonstrates we will improve.
Dewsbury will give a good account next and unless our forwards grow a pair they will be knocked about like rag dolls and another embarrassing performance is on the cards

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:17 pm  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

Geoff I have no problem in losing with a depleted side but the lack of urgency, pace, basic skills and zero and I mean zero attacking options should alarm me but now I just accept that we are an exceptionally poor outfit because that is what we are.
We could very easily be where Huddersfield are. In fact I'd say we are the worst performing team after HKR I have seen this year.
I accept the injuries but can't accept that Powell who was allegedly a half back can't or won't kick and he can't pass a ball into someone's bread basket on a half decent basis.
I can't accept Isa as a player. He ain't a forward in the memory of man and has still to make one and I mean one break this season. What the hell did we sign him for?
I can't accept that Burke & Sutton as a young thrusting professionals can just trundle in and hardly make any ground and seem totally incapable of doing more than 15 minute stints. These are supposedly our young guns who want a career in RL but do not show a tad of ability or a willingness to grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Basically they play without balls. I want young bucks ripping into to teams our lot are timid and lack raw aggression that SW allegedly drums into them.
I can't accept that Tierney has a position of any sort. What does he do well? He has no apparent pace, can't catch a high ball and seems totally detached from all aspects of the game.
You mention 6 forwards missing the problem is that we will always have players missing due to injury and add the fact that SOL will never be a regular and MM can't play 80 minutes and has done nothing for over 2 seasons therefore, some of the lads who were on the pitch last night are effectively regulars.
Without Bateman we are a bottom 4 team without any shadow of a doubt in my eyes and even when some players get back we are most definitely not a top 4 team. I can go with that if I saw some semblance of green shoots I really could go with that but I just see numbingly boring, pedestrian and joyless rugby.
I'm not overreacting to last nights defeat because it was obvious we were never going to win and I can cope with that what I struggle with is that people assume it will get better when last season showed us we are a poor rugby team and I've seen or heard nothing that demonstrates we will improve.
Dewsbury will give a good account next and unless our forwards grow a pair they will be knocked about like rag dolls and another embarrassing performance is on the cards

So Basically 5 players, only one of whom would be in the 17 possibly if we had a full team out (And bear in mind most people would go with MM for 80 then probably none) are not good enough?
But we can't use that as a reasoning why were not flying?
Were not a Top 4 team even with 7/8 players back yet
First Utility Super League
Last updated 28 April 2016 at 22:02
1
Warrington Wolves
13 10 0 3 391 210 20

2
Catalans Dragons
12 9 0 3 356 248 18

3
Wigan Warriors
13 9 0 4 248 273 18

4
Hull FC
12 8 0 4 323 265 16

We are currently a Top 4 team without them even though you say were a bottom 4 side?

I'm not saying by any means that everything in the garden is rosy, but surely we can see that when we have to play so many youngsters, squad players at once it's no surprise that we can't beat EVERY team and we are going to get Blips.
That's because they are young players, That's because they are squad players and that's why they aren't the Big Earners.
9 wins from 13 has been a massive effort from those squad and young players mixed in with 5/6 1st teamers each week - I'd rather praise them than criticise them for it.

Possibly 7 players (Maybe even 8? ) last night would not make my 1st 17
Total count of squad numbers last night

Wire = 197
Wigan = 278

Get our 1-5-8-9-10-11-12-13 back (And I appreciate MM may not get back this year) and I'm confident we are a Top 2/3 side maybe even good enough to win it - I'll judge them when we get a big proportion of them back and hopefully in the next 2/3 weeks that will happen.

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:28 pm  

Great post Itchy, I fully agree.

Interesting you mention the lack of joy with which we are playing. It is something I've commented on when talking to people about our performances. I generally watch Wakefield every week (home games) and early in the season under Smith they also looked to be playing a joyless style of rugby. Smith is by all accounts an authoritarian style coach and they played with a very negative rigid game plan. He had then in at 6 am most days and used to call and text players late into the night to discuss performance. Chris Chester came in and gave responsibility back to the players. He stopped the early mornings, gave them more freedom and allowed the players to play a more expansive game plan. The results have turned around, the players are playing with a smile and the atmosphere in the ground has transformed from being very flat to being at times electric.

To get the best out of your employees in any job they need to feel valued and enjoy what they are doing. At the moment I don't see that with us. I see a team shackled to play a certain way that they really don't enjoy. Never seen more arguing between players in the field the I have seen so far this year, at times they don't look interested and they are rarely playing with a smile.

You can blame injuries, flu etc etc etc but for me there is s much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. Our league position has been achieved from moments of off the cuff individual brilliance mainly from Manfredi and obviously Bateman, not a well constructed game plan and a motivated enthusiastic unit.

Regardless of who comes back in I really doubt the team will thrive until they start to enjoy the job again.

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:33 pm  

JUKE!!! Stop trying to cheer people up/looking from another angle/trying to be positive. You are wasting your time, as some are at their happiest when miserable....

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:11 pm  

Wigan Peer wrote:

JUKE!!! Stop trying to cheer people up/looking from another angle/trying to be positive. You are wasting your time, as some are at their happiest when miserable....

I'm not miserable but disappointed.
If anyone sees it different from my point of view I have no problem with that. I just write it as I see it If we are good, bad or indifferent.
The style of play, lack of enthusiasm, abject lack of leadership and rank poor skill levels don't please me it just leaves me feeling pretty much nothing for the club I have supported for 50 years.
I just think we are a very poor team at the moment and don't think the return of Crosby, JT and Flower will change much as their form is pretty much non existent.
Maybe I'm wrong and this world of D, middles, subbing by numbers, "athletes" who can't play more than 15 minutes at a time, playing tough but showing zero aggression, "professionals" who can't pass a ball, an inability of any player to catch a high ball, wrestling, players lacking self believe, lack of any specialist, a believe that we don't need a goal kicker and an inability to play anything but by numbers really is the future and I'm just out of touch. Yeah that's it.

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:36 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

So Basically 5 players, only one of whom would be in the 17 possibly if we had a full team out (And bear in mind most people would go with MM for 80 then probably none) are not good enough?
But we can't use that as a reasoning why were not flying?
Were not a Top 4 team even with 7/8 players back yet
First Utility Super League
Last updated 28 April 2016 at 22:02
1
Warrington Wolves
13 10 0 3 391 210 20

2
Catalans Dragons
12 9 0 3 356 248 18

3
Wigan Warriors
13 9 0 4 248 273 18

4
Hull FC
12 8 0 4 323 265 16

We are currently a Top 4 team without them even though you say were a bottom 4 side?

I'm not saying by any means that everything in the garden is rosy, but surely we can see that when we have to play so many youngsters, squad players at once it's no surprise that we can't beat EVERY team and we are going to get Blips.
That's because they are young players, That's because they are squad players and that's why they aren't the Big Earners.
9 wins from 13 has been a massive effort from those squad and young players mixed in with 5/6 1st teamers each week - I'd rather praise them than criticise them for it.

Possibly 7 players (Maybe even 8? ) last night would not make my 1st 17
Total count of squad numbers last night

Wire = 197
Wigan = 278

Get our 1-5-8-9-10-11-12-13 back (And I appreciate MM may not get back this year) and I'm confident we are a Top 2/3 side maybe even good enough to win it - I'll judge them when we get a big proportion of them back and hopefully in the next 2/3 weeks that will happen.

Jukes I accept some of your points but my problem is twofold. Firstly our style is rank. It was rank last year and this year it has worsened due in part to injuries but still rank.
Secondly some of the players to comeback aren't exactly going to make the opposition quake. What has Crosby ever done? I believe he wants to go to Aus well let him go. Ben Flower had done nothing since 2014 so what will that change going forward? JT adds very little other than shuffling and pushing - I've seen more aggression from U9's.
SOL was a great player but he is on a downward slope and age will mean we will see less and less of him in the future.
I rate Farrell but if he plays what do you do with Bateman? SW only puts middles on the bench so either Bateman wil play or Farrell but not both
Obviously collectively they are better than the current players but I'm not convinced that even when the majority are back we will improve sufficiently to even get close to any silverware. As a team we have lacked composure, class, urgency, aggression, tactical awareness, any sort of a kicking game, intensity and entertainment for nearly 2 years and as much as I love ST I don't think even he can cover over all of those canyons because they are not cracks.
I hope your logic is right and I'm embarrassed in October when we whip the Wire at OT but I won't hold my breath.
I like bet and prepared to have a betwith you now that we won't finish in the top 4. If I lost and we start to play rugby again it will be a bet I will be pleased to lose.

Re: Our "forwards" : Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:17 pm  

I have to agree with Itchy, as I just posted on the Warrington thread. I watched Wests beat the Bunnies last night. Their skipper and best forward by a mile was out injured, they have a side full of kids, and they shipped 60 points the previous week. They have three very talented young players in Brooks and Moses in the halves, and Tedesco at full back. But Moses pulled up injured in the warm-up, so they had to play a second-rower at five-eighth (a la Gregson). Tedesco left the field injured around half-time, and Jordan Rankin (of "not good enough for Hull FC" fame) went from wing to full-back. But guided around by the kid Brooks, they still did enough to hold off Sam Burgess and co and his team full of Origin players. And actually Rankin, although his goal-kicking was a bit hit and miss, had a bloody good game and scored two tries. Seems to me the main explanation must lie in the coaching.