Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 11:58 am  

no because being champions for me is winning the league, not the grand final,
and when you win the challenge cup are you not the challenge cup champions?

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 12:01 pm  

truewiganer wrote:

no because being champions for me is winning the league, not the grand final,
and when you win the challenge cup are you not the challenge cup champions?

Only if you're a Wire.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 12:10 pm  

Only if you're a person trying to market a game for as much profit as possible you mean.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 12:17 pm  

truewiganer wrote:

no because being champions for me is winning the league, not the grand final,
and when you win the challenge cup are you not the challenge cup champions?

The flaw in that argument is that, while I have a real soft spot for the Cup and I admire anyone who can finish top of the league, winning the Grand Final really is the ultimate test of a team. There are no flukes or lucky draws to help you reach a Grand Final. The intensity of the play-offs is amazing - and in practise has been far too much for most SL teams - and that only comes AFTER you've striven hard for a reasonably good finishing spot in the table.

My original question was how to regenerate interest in the Cup, when it so clearly has been superceded in terms of importance by the play-offs and the Grand Final?

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 1:24 pm  

What about making the CC competition a handicap format? ie the team that finishes the last superleague season top starts every cc round with one point and the team that finishes bottom of championship 1 starts with 35 points and so on. We used the same system in Amateur RL and it gave the lower teams a better chance / incentive and stopped big clubs fielding weaker teams.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 1:36 pm  

I love the CC so i won't pan it, but with the CC you could be lucky enough to not face anyone of note and win it.
Now imagine this wigan v saints
Wire v leeds and hudds v (lets say Cas)
Wigan beat saints, wire beat leeds
Cas beat hudds
Then next round wire v cas, wigan v catalan, then cats and cas win then next round both cats and cas go out. All the big teams take each other out and some team whose biggest game was Cas win the cup.
It makes it romantic but it doesn't make it the premier comp.

The Gf is usually 2 teams at the peak of their game which,for a neutral makes it a better quality game.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 1:47 pm  

Horatio Yed wrote:

I love the CC so i won't pan it, but with the CC you could be lucky enough to not face anyone of note and win it.
Now imagine this wigan v saints
Wire v leeds and hudds v (lets say Cas)
Wigan beat saints, wire beat leeds
Cas beat hudds
Then next round wire v cas, wigan v catalan, then cats and cas win then next round both cats and cas go out. All the big teams take each other out and some team whose biggest game was Cas win the cup.
It makes it romantic but it doesn't make it the premier comp.

The Gf is usually 2 teams at the peak of their game which,for a neutral makes it a better quality game.

And I think most people are now more aware of this than ever before.

In the pre-Grand Final era, almost every trophy, with the exception of the League Trophy, was decided on a knock-out basis. So there was very little to compare the Challenge Cup with. It just happened to be the biggest of several similar knock-out trophies because its final was at Wembley.

Now, after a decade of Grand Final epics, especially as this coincided with a troubled times for the Challenge Cup - nomadic shifts between venues, the pre-season experiment, several mismatched finals - people have a much more grounded view of which is the more exhilarating event.

My problem is, lover of the CC though I am, I have a bad feeling that the genii is now out of the bottle. The CC semis and final have the potential to be as exciting as they ever were, but they won't always be, and I can't ever see a time again when the CC is viewed by the majority of the fans as the game's most prestigious competition.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 2:42 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

The flaw in that argument is that, while I have a real soft spot for the Cup and I admire anyone who can finish top of the league, winning the Grand Final really is the ultimate test of a team. There are no flukes or lucky draws to help you reach a Grand Final. The intensity of the play-offs is amazing - and in practise has been far too much for most SL teams - and that only comes AFTER you've striven hard for a reasonably good finishing spot in the table.

My original question was how to regenerate interest in the Cup, when it so clearly has been superceded in terms of importance by the play-offs and the Grand Final?

The biggest factor, I think, is TV coverage. The Beeb simply aren't interested any more...and when the cup was at it's peak there was no competing coverage of league games.

They couldn't even be bothered putting on a highlights show similar to the Super League Show.

For all we complain about Sky, if they had the CC rights, they'd do a far better job of marketing and covering it.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 3:01 pm  

Geoff wrote:

The biggest factor, I think, is TV coverage. The Beeb simply aren't interested any more...and when the cup was at it's peak there was no competing coverage of league games.

They couldn't even be bothered putting on a highlights show similar to the Super League Show.

For all we complain about Sky, if they had the CC rights, they'd do a far better job of marketing and covering it.

I think you're right. But I have another, not-unrelated theory about the CC, which I admit may seem a little bit fanciful, but just give it a try.

The BBC loved the CC because it was - in their words - the People's Final. It suited their socialist-tinted university view of the world that the working class should be given a day out, and that everyone should celebrate it with them. If you think about it, while Grandstand would preview the FA Cup Final with non-stop, carefully edited action sequences (which contributed to making the whole occasion seem a lot more exciting than it ever turned out to be), it would preview the Challenge Cup by wheeling Colin Welland out to talk about mills, terraced houses and men of iron made from muck and brass.

I can't help wondering if the image of cloth caps and brass bands hasn't actually held the development of the game back in this country. Now that all that's gone, it genuinely seems as if the BBC have completely fallen out of love with Rugby League and don't know what to do with it any more. The CC - as the BBC's main tournament - could be the biggest casualty of that.

Re: Why has the Cup lost its romance? : Wed May 11, 2011 4:27 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

I think you're right. But I have another, not-unrelated theory about the CC, which I admit may seem a little bit fanciful, but just give it a try.

The BBC loved the CC because it was - in their words - the People's Final. It suited their socialist-tinted university view of the world that the working class should be given a day out, and that everyone should celebrate it with them. If you think about it, while Grandstand would preview the FA Cup Final with non-stop, carefully edited action sequences (which contributed to making the whole occasion seem a lot more exciting than it ever turned out to be), it would preview the Challenge Cup by wheeling Colin Welland out to talk about mills, terraced houses and men of iron made from muck and brass.

I can't help wondering if the image of cloth caps and brass bands hasn't actually held the development of the game back in this country. Now that all that's gone, it genuinely seems as if the BBC have completely fallen out of love with Rugby League and don't know what to do with it any more. The CC - as the BBC's main tournament - could be the biggest casualty of that.

A very insightful and thoughtful post Cruncher !