Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:43 pm  

Surely, a second referendum is inevitable now?
Isn’t a hope in hell that either no deal or May’s deal will gain a parliamentary majority (good ol’ sovereignty) so it will be put back to the people.

It could all be done in one referendum. First question: Do you want to Leave the EU or Remain? Second Question: In the event of a majority Leave vote, would you prefer to leave on the terms of the PM's deal, or with no deal?

And before the more swivel-eyed leave supporters start spouting the undemocratic nonsense, this would not be "overturning" the result of the 2016 referendum, any more than a General Election overturns the policies and mandates arising from the previous General Election. Indeed, democracy can only operate properly and fairly if voting is an ongoing process.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:47 pm  

Strinket wrote:

Surely, a second referendum is inevitable now?
Isn’t a hope in hell that either no deal or May’s deal will gain a parliamentary majority (good ol’ sovereignty) so it will be put back to the people.

It could all be done in one referendum. First question: Do you want to Leave the EU or Remain? Second Question: In the event of a majority Leave vote, would you prefer to leave on the terms of the PM's deal, or with no deal?

And before the more swivel-eyed leave supporters start spouting the undemocratic nonsense, this would not be "overturning" the result of the 2016 referendum, any more than a General Election overturns the policies and mandates arising from the previous General Election. Indeed, democracy can only operate properly and fairly if voting is an ongoing process.

A second referendum would only perpetuate the Brexit merry go round.

Even if "remain" won the second referendum, the result is likely to remain extremely close and then what ? Best of 3, best of 5.

Unfortunately we still have to rely on the elected members to carry out the will of the people, something that so far, they have failed at rather miserably

[Mild Rover]

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:05 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

A second referendum would only perpetuate the Brexit merry go round.

Even if "remain" won the second referendum, the result is likely to remain extremely close and then what ? Best of 3, best of 5.

Unfortunately we still have to rely on the elected members to carry out the will of the people, something that so far, they have failed at rather miserably

The problem is, it is the wills of the people, and whatever they do, those that agree with them will take it for granted and those that don’t will be furious with them. And whatever they do most people will disagree.

I accept that you don’t want to tie negotiators hands, but ‘leave’ was a ridiculously open option. It had to be leave and go somewhere somewhat specific. By leaving it so open, people could project their own preferences onto it, which in some cases were/are mutually exclusive.

So a general election made sense from that perspective... but led to a hung parliament. There’s no settled public consensus still, more than two years on, on what Brexit should look like.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:56 pm  

tigertot wrote:

Which did people vote for?

It is very simple. People voted to leave the EU. That was followed by a General Election in which the two parties receiving the overwhelming majority of votes cast stood on manifestos stating they would honour the referendum result. So, any daft so called People's Vote should not include a 'remain' option without first holding a general election where at least one major party stands on a Remain ticket and wins.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:03 pm  

Strinket wrote:

Surely, a second referendum is inevitable now?
Isn’t a hope in hell that either no deal or May’s deal will gain a parliamentary majority (good ol’ sovereignty) so it will be put back to the people.

It could all be done in one referendum. First question: Do you want to Leave the EU or Remain? Second Question: In the event of a majority Leave vote, would you prefer to leave on the terms of the PM's deal, or with no deal?

And before the more swivel-eyed leave supporters start spouting the undemocratic nonsense, this would not be "overturning" the result of the 2016 referendum, any more than a General Election overturns the policies and mandates arising from the previous General Election. Indeed, democracy can only operate properly and fairly if voting is an ongoing process.

Whilst a laudable suggestion, I would claim many voters would struggle with the concept of two questions on one paper!

Some could say I'm mocking many of those who dragged themselves out for the first time in their lives to stick it to "The Man" -

They'd be right.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:50 pm  

Let’s remember, most leave voters were uneducated when it came to politics and didn’t know what they were voting for as opposed to remain voters who surely didn’t include any 18/19/20 year olds voting for the first time who based their votes on scaremonging news they saw on social media or because their favourite music star backed remain.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:10 am  

Dally wrote:

It is very simple. People voted to leave the EU. That was followed by a General Election in which the two parties receiving the overwhelming majority of votes cast stood on manifestos stating they would honour the referendum result. So, any daft so called People's Vote should not include a 'remain' option without first holding a general election where at least one major party stands on a Remain ticket and wins.

Excellent post and the only way the basic principal of democracy is preserved. The supposed uneducated leave voters is a flimsy fallacy perpetuated by those that believe that democracy consists of "Have a vote, if we lose we have another"!

There are many observers that are actually saying WTO conditions are nothing that is unmanageable or to be frightened of in the event of no deal.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:01 am  

Dally wrote:

It is very simple. People voted to leave the EU. That was followed by a General Election in which the two parties receiving the overwhelming majority of votes cast stood on manifestos stating they would honour the referendum result. So, any daft so called People's Vote should not include a 'remain' option without first holding a general election where at least one major party stands on a Remain ticket and wins.

It's like voting for a political party with no manifesto who then deliver the opposite of what you thought then no-one being able to complain.

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:07 am  

Trevork52 wrote:

There are many observers that are actually saying WTO conditions are nothing that is unmanageable or to be frightened of in the event of no deal.

Is this yet more bravado and bull from planet leave ?
The very same group who said we would be no worse off, leave without a divorce bill, have exactly the same trading terms AND save £350,000,000 which we would then use for the NHS.
I think these are some of the reasons why "you" are labelled as "uneducated" etc
NONE of their "benefits" are likely to be true but, if you close your eyes and keep everything crossed, everything will be just fine, honest.
Free movement will end, in both directions but, this will be replaced by an increase in net immigration from elsewhere, something that is already apparent in the latest figures:

Table 1: Latest Migration Statistics, Year Ending June 2018

All Citizenships British Non-British EU Non-EU
Immigration 625,000 80,000 545,000 219,000 326,000
Emigration 351,000 128,000 223,000 145,000 78,000
Net Migration 273,000 -49,000 322,000 74,000 248,000

As you can see, the numbers from the EU are dropping but, the "controlled" immigration is now rising.

Who would have thought that this could happen, it's as though someone may have had an agenda

Re: Brexit Anyone ? (part 3) : Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:35 am  

Strinket wrote:

Surely, a second referendum is inevitable now?
Isn’t a hope in hell that either no deal or May’s deal will gain a parliamentary majority (good ol’ sovereignty) so it will be put back to the people.

It could all be done in one referendum. First question: Do you want to Leave the EU or Remain? Second Question: In the event of a majority Leave vote, would you prefer to leave on the terms of the PM's deal, or with no deal?

And before the more swivel-eyed leave supporters start spouting the undemocratic nonsense, this would not be "overturning" the result of the 2016 referendum, any more than a General Election overturns the policies and mandates arising from the previous General Election. Indeed, democracy can only operate properly and fairly if voting is an ongoing process.

I don't think that No Deal needs a parliamentary majority. It is the default position, and anything other than a no deal needs a majority to agree. So, if nobody does anything between now and the 29th March, we leave the EU with no deal.

Given how negotiations with the EU have gone, does anybody trust this lot (either side of the house) to negotiate trade deals around the world?